I know next to nothing about mechanics and engines, so which would you reccomend (for those of you who have done this sort of thing) in a 98 Cavalier 2.2? I will not be attempting the swap, a local garage will. What do I need to know/worry about: speedometers, computers, transmissions, etc?
From what I have noticed the boosted ecotechs have been blowing up, and the 3.8 swaps have been full of problems. Should I consider a different engine altogether?
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build the eco up.... then boost it. only reason ecos have been blowing cause they are stock.
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boost will be soon for me....
thanks to mil county police in the state of wisconsin. I know that my window tint is rated at 3.7%
I kind of take offense to you saying that 3.8 swaps are full of problems. I have never had any problems with mine and we have never had any problems with the other 3.8 swap we did. Sebastian is the only other person to pull off this swap and he didn't have any other problems with his either so your information about 3.8 swaps being full of problems is complete BS! Sorry if I am coming off as a prick but I have spent a lot of time helping people with this swap and I don't like reading statements like the one you wrote when it is completely false.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Then why would I be interested in doing a 3.8? I see no reason for you to be offended everything I read is over my head anyhow, maybe you should reply to the questions and straighten me out. What is your advice, what do I need to worry about, etc.
Thanks.
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Mennitti wrote:Then why would I be interested in doing a 3.8? I see no reason for you to be offended everything I read is over my head anyhow, maybe you should reply to the questions and straighten me out. What is your advice, what do I need to worry about, etc.
Thanks.
If everything you read is over your head than you have no place to say anything really. I would love to know where you read that 3.8 swaps are nothing but problems considering there are only two people on this whole site who have actually completed it. I know I never said anything like that and Sebastian doesn't speek english very well so I know it wasen't him. I think you just assumed that there would be lots of problems which is not the case at all if you do your research. Again sorry for comming off as a prick but I don't like to see misinformation being posted about something that I worked very hard to do in the frist place and still work hard to support.
Mennitti wrote:maybe you should reply to the questions and straighten me out
Well really since you have admitted to knowing next to nothing I would recommend going with a straight eco swap without the turbo. It's a pretty straight forward swap and will be much cheaper than a 3800. Get that in there and running and then start reading and then read some more. Get educated on engines and boost before going any further with it. There is no point in putting all this money and work into something when you don't understand how it all works together. The last thing you want to happen is your new engine blow up because of a stupid mistake that you didn't know about.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Like I said, a garage will be doing all this because I do not comprehend engines at all or most of what I read. I'm an electronics guy.
Basically what I am after is a neat and clean show worthey improvement somewhere approaching 200hp. But, I do not want nitrous. Am I also wrong in my belief that the 98 2.2liter 2200 engine is not worth upgrading because there are few mods, and most are for very little increases?
What advice do all of you guys have, should I have the shop remove my engine clean it up and turbo it?
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raven wrote:I have never had any problems with mine
what about when your engine tried to rip itself out of the car? you have had problems Raven, I'm not saying that you've been plagued by them, but thats the one prob that stuck out in my mind.. i think it was because all the motor mounts weren't hooked up or something i'm not too sure since it was a long time ago, but you did have a little bit of problems here n there.
EVERY motor swap will
Quote:
From what I have noticed the boosted ecotechs have been blowing up
not to bad mouth anyone who's been boosting the ecoteCs and pushing them to the limit because I'm joining their camp very soon... but a few of the ones that destroyed themselves were never properly tuned. Lack of a wideband o2 sensor with no tuning whatsoever on one car sticks out the most in my mind.
or just getting boost happy.
There has been a few sucessful stories tho like hypsy and suncavi... hypsy in the mid to low 12s and suncavi running high 11s on a stock block ecotec with a lot of boost. It will work, the question is how long. Everyone knows the pistons and rods are the weak link in these motors, but they will last for a while right around 300whp.
EMPHASIS on "a while".
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Should I consider a different engine altogether?
what other engine is there? LD9 swap is going to be just as difficult as an ecotec swap, however the ecotec (L61) has an advantage over the LD9 since new and state of the art technology is going to be geared towards it. The LD9 is falling further and further into the past, and if it isn't already out chances are new stuff is going to be further and farther between for the LD9 vs the L61.
the 2.0 ecotec s/c (LSJ), or the 2.4 ecotec (LE5) are options that many have considered, however a hybrid of an L61 with either of those two would be more pheasible (physical charactestic differences, as well as computer differences would prevent a direct drop in 2.0 or 2.4 ecotec).
the new 2.0 turbo (LNF) would be a sweet swap, but that so far is for RWD only and since it isn't even out yet it'd be a little difficult to come by.
there are other 60 degree V6s that would fit with less work, but 3800 would be much more fabrication on your part. however, if there's anyone to talk to about V6 swaps, talk to Raven (3800 s/c), Mr Goodwrench or SHOoff (3400), and quicklilcav (3100).
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) wrote:raven wrote:I have never had any problems with mine
what about when your engine tried to rip itself out of the car? you have had problems Raven, I'm not saying that you've been plagued by them, but thats the one prob that stuck out in my mind.. i think it was because all the motor mounts weren't hooked up or something i'm not too sure since it was a long time ago, but you did have a little bit of problems here n there.
EVERY motor swap will
Sure when we first built the car it had never been done before so of course there are going to be things to figure out. I wouldn't really call them problems though, more of a learning curve and learing what will work and what won't. I was the guinea pig for all that so that others in the future would not have those problems and I think we have done just that. At this point in time there is no reason that a 3800 can't be put into a j-body WITHOUT any problems as long as you have all the parts, done the proper research, have the proper tools and some mechanical skill. For example, the second swap we did is coming up on 3 years and he hasen't had one problem with it, ever.
Sure people are going to run into problems with anything they do. Hell I had one hell of a time getting my passangers side ball joint broke free last week, I don't consider that a problem though. My only point was that the 3800 swap is NOT full of problems like the original poster would have people believe. Sure it is probably the hardest swap to do but it can be done without any problems if the proper steps are taken.
P.S. It never tired to rip itself out of the car..lol It pulled the rad support back a bit and twisted an engine mount (which has been redesigned since) but that was about it. That was also on the very first test drive for something that had never been done before. This is the 3rd year it has been on the road and I haven't had ANY problems other than the ones I caused.
Oh and the 3800 is actually a 90 degree V6.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
If you're planning on having a shop do the work, I'd reccomend not doing the swap at all. The price that you're going to have to pay for the wiring job alone will be not worth the money.
If you plan on doing it yourself, you had better be able to read, and understand wiring diagrams. For a 5spd swap, you'll probably want to run a standalone ECU. In which case, you better learn what engine sensors you're looking at, by their location
Better learn how to weld too.
For an ECOTEC swap, you're still going to need to change quite a bit of wiring. All of it, actually. The entire wire harness thoughout the entire car, will need to be changed.
For the speed comparison, I dunno how much the difference would be between a 3400 and a 3800s/c swap. I'd like to at some point get on the track against a Cav with 3800s/c swap (preferably something with less mods than Raven has) and see how I compare, with 60 less hp and 75 less tq.
PJ has it right the only ecotecs that have blown, blew due to poor thought or rushness. 1 that comes to my mind is brandoson but thats because he had no injectors but he knew the consequences and unfortunatley before he got some it went.
Suncavi... Hypsy.... John..... Myself.... and The BoostedCavi guy have all had great success with boosted cars... John and Hypsy's blew because of sheer power out put
One thing we have noticed is that the ringlands seem to go on 03+ motors more so then rods.. I know Airtonics through a rod but I am not sure which motor he had
idk... its tough
I suggest doing the ecotec swap and then BEFORE boosting do a LOT of reading on the motor and HOW turbocharger systems work. Without knowledge you will blow it up even fi the shop does it all... you need to understand ALL the ins and outs of the turbo kit and this motor... if you swap to the ECOTEC
the ecotec is a very powerful plant as any motor can be properly known and tuned. I feel that the ecotec will make you happier in the swap and will be cheaper...
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
SHOoff wrote:For an ECOTEC swap, you're still going to need to change quite a bit of wiring. All of it, actually. The entire wire harness thoughout the entire car, will need to be changed.
For the speed comparison, I dunno how much the difference would be between a 3400 and a 3800s/c swap. I'd like to at some point get on the track against a Cav with 3800s/c swap (preferably something with less mods than Raven has) and see how I compare, with 60 less hp and 75 less tq.
You can leave the tail light harness in there.
Just for reference when I had a 3.4" pulley, intake, exhaust, and some minor PCM work I ran a 13.1@108. Sebastian was able to run a 14.0 on a completely stock 3800 s/c with an automatic tranny.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
Well as stated if you plan to pay a shop to do a swap or whatever work you want done I would not do a Ecotec swap, or a 3800 SC swap, really any motor swap. I would do a turbo set-up on your current motor. For teh HP level you are looking for you can get really close to that on the stock 2200. Truly I think this is your best bet. Now if you just want to swap out to a different motor then my next option would be a 2.4 (LD9). This swap can be done without re-wiring the whole car (un-like the Ecotec swap). These choices are based off your knowledge and the fact you are going to pay a shop to do this. Labor cost will be unreal. Now if you considered doing the work yourself, or with help of some friends, family whatever. Still a 2.4 (LD9) swap. 200WHP can easily be made on a stock motor, and there is plenty of aftermarket mods for that motor if you ever decide to build it. You could always try a Ecotec swap. Other than the tranny mounts it is a plug and play swap (and the headlight harness). You could get the parts (by getting a parts car) for anywhere from $600-$1200.
Again for your goals in power a stock 2200 can give you that with a turbo kit, and then you can always build it better for more (Yes people you can do more with a 2.4, or a Ecotec, or a 3800 SC, but that was not what he asked for). Also the money invested to get that goal, you would have less in just turboing your stock motor, then you would in swapping to a different motor and then turboing that.
FU Tuning
Quote:
Oh and the 3800 is actually a 90 degree V6.
damn you and your particularities!
QBE wrote:One thing we have noticed is that the ringlands (on ecotecs) seem to go on 03+ motors more so then rods
damn right phil good point
the ringlands tend to break off and dance around for a lil while when boosted for a period of time. catastrophic failure is a little less common, but failure is inevitable on a stock bottom end boosted eco unless you live at 7psi for the rest of your life (and thats lame).
unfortunately anything before 00 cavalier the eco swap is a lot harder... i forget who to talk to because I did my swap on a 2002... it was basically plug and play. the 99 and prior need a rewiring job, and some other mechanical tidbits. Somebody chime in here....
raven wrote:SHOoff wrote:For an ECOTEC swap, you're still going to need to change quite a bit of wiring. All of it, actually. The entire wire harness thoughout the entire car, will need to be changed.
For the speed comparison, I dunno how much the difference would be between a 3400 and a 3800s/c swap. I'd like to at some point get on the track against a Cav with 3800s/c swap (preferably something with less mods than Raven has) and see how I compare, with 60 less hp and 75 less tq.
You can leave the tail light harness in there. Just for reference when I had a 3.4" pulley, intake, exhaust, and some minor PCM work I ran a 13.1@108. Sebastian was able to run a 14.0 on a completely stock 3800 s/c with an automatic tranny.
Oh, heh. Forgot about the lighting harness. For the 1/4 times.... I'll have to find out what I can do I guess. I know traction wont be pretty, due to cheap tires. But i'm thinkin it wont reach 14.0
I appreciate the input guys. I may just go with John's advice on turboing the 2200. I was under the impression that my engine was not realy worth touching. All I want is a little power to get to shows, and to drive it on fair weather days.
What parts should I buy for the 2200 to beef it up for a turbo install? Performance cams, rods, chips, CAI, etc?
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If $ is an issue, do the ecotech swap, build it up and then turbo it. Do it properly and it will be a fine daily driver that can handle itself and more at the track.
Oh and James, get on MSN you bastard, I need PCM info!
Isaak wrote:Oh and James, get on MSN you bastard, I need PCM info!
I'll be on MSN sometime tonight. I'm at work right now and don't have access.
Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore
raven@accesswave.ca
Raven Autosports
55 McQuade Lake Cres,
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(902) 850-3330
10.82@132
man if i lived by raven I would be runnin a v6 supercharged under my hood too. that would be so bad ass.... but in the mean time i dont mind my my four banger with boost
Now Powered By TEAM GREEN
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/827643
boost will be soon for me....
thanks to mil county police in the state of wisconsin. I know that my window tint is rated at 3.7%
I will say this from a personal base....... this swap (3800 SC) can be done with alot of hard work and some cash, not a crazy amount IF you have the right resourses and know the right people and really do your research.
Since you guyz are on the topic who can assist me with a 3.4L swap out of an Alero
They're not on the topic. The 3.8 and the 3.4 are a totally different motor. You've been told to look at the 3rd gen forum.
