yes i am revisiting this topic. to my knowledge i don't think it has really ever been pressed. anyways i went and bought the 98+ intake mani, throttle body, fuel rail and injectors.
here are my thoughts and insights so far.
1. on both TB's they look like they pretty much all have the same sensors. pretty much plug and play there. but that was at just a quick glance.
2. i started a mock-up of the adapter plate and it doesn't seem like it is gonna be to tough at all. my plan is to make one out of MDF board for a dry fit and then go get one made out of aluminum.
3. as for the egr valve all i gotta do is plumb it into the new mani right?
i am thinking i am missing something big here because it seems to be a bit to easy so far.
could someone enlighten me about it?
i think i am missing something important when it comes to the whole egr thing.
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Major had a machine shop estimate the cost of creating an adapter plate. The first plate would have cost us $1500usd, and every plate after $50usd. go figure.
In terms of the EGR, sorry I can't help you, im using a 'stock' manifold.
holy freaking crap batman. that is insane. i know my machine shop would not charge nearly that much. i could probably get access to a milling machine or figure it out myself. my machine guy seems pretty good with this kinda stuff. i'm sure i could find someone around here that would help me out for reasonable price. i like living in a small town sometimes.
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stevefire wrote:Major had a machine shop estimate the cost of creating an adapter plate. The first plate would have cost us $1500usd, and every plate after $50usd. go figure.
I believe that was to create a program for the CNC, which would explain the difference between the first and second unit prices. Having a one-off done on a mill wouldn't cost nearly as much.
My views:
2200 head swap - get screwed on the valvetrain, since we've got the 2.2L pretty much figured out. IIRC, you lose EGR operation (not good for those of us who have strict emissions)
2200 mani swap - not enough room to make a smooth transition adapter....maybe there's enough meat around the intake runners in the head to 'help out'?
2200 rail swap - in order to mount the injectors in the proper position, a spacer must be made so the TB clears (might as well make a custom plenum)
Saturns w/ MS - freakin huge injectors (I'm thinking more and more this may be the way to go)
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
oh ya I know where the cost goes, it just wasnt worth it to try to get people in on it and get it done.
hence the top feed conversion I did..
i think there would be enough room for a 1/2" adapter plate and it could be done smooth enought for boost and stuff. porting the head would help some too. if 15 people wanted a plate it would be like $150 a person. i think i would pay that.
also the egr valve is just the tube that goes from the head to the intake runners right? that could be plummed into the new mani easily enough. are there any other sensor or anything else i am missing?
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I really need to get my manifold done. I don't think it's impossible to build the top feed with injectors angled correctly and the TB in an acceptable position. It seems like there's always something to get done first. I'll stop in and see my friend at the machine shop next week and get this project going again.
I have also acquired a '97 2.2 Cavvy auto for parts. I'll be using the engine to build a replacement for the 93 but I can take some measurements from the engine bay before removal to get an idea where a strut tower bar might be in relation to the TB and upper plenum.
For the 98 intake, isn't that manifold plastic? And if I remember correctly, that thing had some tiny runners. I think I've passed up a few that were very cheap.
-->Slow
slowolej wrote:I have also acquired a '97 2.2 Cavvy auto for parts. I'll be using the engine to build a replacement for the 93 but I can take some measurements from the engine bay before removal to get an idea where a strut tower bar might be in relation to the TB and upper plenum.
For the 98 intake, isn't that manifold plastic? And if I remember correctly, that thing had some tiny runners. I think I've passed up a few that were very cheap.
-->Slow
How much of that '97 you planning on using?
The 2200 intake manifold runners look really narrow, but they have thinner walls than the 2.2L, and because they are squared instead of round, they actually have a larger cross-sectional area.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
WHAT ABOUT MY EGR QUESTIONS! j/k
anyways comparing both mani's side by side i don't see too much of a difference. plus square always has more area than circle. (when both have same distance across, and they are close.)
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another thought on this topic. how possible would it be to just fill the stock bolt holes and then just drill and tap new bolts. then just port out the intake holes to match the new mani?
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With this swap if your willing to DIY, anything is possible. As for the CNC program. I've worked with a few CNC machines, and this program would be a simple matter of developing the program, cutting a piece, test fit, adjust parameters, and cut a new piece. If it were on our CNC we'd use some scrap that we had in the shop to make the inital design cuts, and finish it off with some high grade aluminum or alloy steel.
Im in the process of working on a 3800 SC intake manifold for a 96 cavalier, ln2. From what I understand the big issues are of course proper runner length, smooth bends so the air flow is consistant, port matched to the intake with a p&p head, injector angle to prevent puddling, and of course top down conversion. I know how a top down rail works, i just dont know how bottom feed works. Do the saturn hugh injectors fit in bottom feed, or do we need to look at top loaders. I also heard y ou can get side feed injectors and mount the rail off of them.
So what i'm looking at is, an intake design with egr, ruel rail, p&p 5angle +1mm head, matched to intake, exhaust etc...
Which brings me to my point, i think if you can machine a intake flange you could weld it right up to the intake header. Any machine shop doing a CNC setup would charge 1500 but if your just doing it for 1 or 2, you could probably get away with $125 in most shops with design and cut being torch.
I think i will look at this in more detail, this seems to be an ongoing prob with Jbody 2.2 pre 98 motors.
the saturn TBI injectors work with bottom feed rails.
the CNC would be a matter of shaping the port from a square hole into a round one, I dont think it'd be all that easy to program in.
You'd have to be pretty skilled in order to develop a perfect convex to fit square to round.
Quote:
WHAT ABOUT MY EGR QUESTIONS!
If people don't answer your questions it may be because they don't know the answers. The best, absolutely best way to get the information you want is to get a 2.2L cylinder head and a 2200 intake in your hands and start looking at how the parts can fit together. Anything else is guessing, even from the rest of us. Sure it's possible to fill bolt holes and to weld and reshape ports. The question for most of us isn't "can it be done" but "what can we do that makes the most sense in terms of work and money." Why are you even bothering to connect the EGR? Once you add a turbo you're not emissions legal anyway.
The tube on the 2.2 intake is part of the EGR system. It's connected to the combination coolant outlet and egr valve adapter. You'll have to figure out where the tube is connected on the 2200 intake and fab up a pipe or tube to connect the EGR adapter to the new intake.
Notec, things have just changed for me. Look for my post in 2nd gen forum. Let this thread stay on topic.
-->Slow
yeah i was looking at the head and both mani's again. i think i am gonna make an adapter with straight through holes and just port the holes in the head more squarish.
as for the asking about the egr i was really just joking.
if i don't hook up the egr tube would it set off a CEL? around here having a turbo will let you pass emissions but the egr has to be hooked up. which is stupid.
the tube is so easy to fab up. i wasn't sure if was as simple as just making a new egr tube or not. i don't think this whole adapter plate thing would be to hard at all.
i was gonna get the basic shape of the holes and stuff done on the milling machine and do the rest by hand to get the final shaping.
i have a spare head and an extra mani of each kind sitting here. it just seemed a little easier than i thought at first.
as for the saturn injectors it was to my understanding that they are a little hard to control because of the pressure.
i looked at the head again about the filling the holes also and it would not work right to tap out new holes. would poke into the valve area.
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Saturn injectors are hard to control because of the volume. It's like trying to fill a water glass with a fire hose.
The EGR tube should be a material which will handle large amounts of hot, corrosive gasses. With your car you should be saving up for HPTuners if you're going turbo. If so you can shut off the EGR codes.
-->Slow
just curious i have a 96 2.2. what would be the easiest route to get HPT working in my car and still keep the same engine?
i also thought HPT couldn't see boost?
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no its not.
the 96 DIS and the 97 DIS are completely different.
IIRC the 97+ are 6 wire DIS', where as the 96s are only 2 wire.
It would take a bit of work as the connections to the PCM (I believe) are different between the 2 years.
don't quote me on that, I only know the 96 DIS and the 97 DIS module's are NOT compatible.
hmm. i don't think i want to get into that. i think i will work more on switching completely to MS and just unplug the stock computer all together. i was talking to the guys here and they told me as long as there isn't a check engine light on they don't plug it to the OBD2 machine.
that or i could just take out the CEL bulb altogether. ;O)
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Sean McAfee wrote:hmm. i don't think i want to get into that. i think i will work more on switching completely to MS and just unplug the stock computer all together. i was talking to the guys here and they told me as long as there isn't a check engine light on they don't plug it to the OBD2 machine.
that or i could just take out the CEL bulb altogether. ;O)
If you unplug the ECU completely and run a stand alone system, you won't have to worry about the OBD II stuff because the stand alone doesn't work the same way. You also won't have to unplug the CEL bulb to keep it from being lit because it won't get a signal. Neither will any of the other warning lights, or even your gauges for that matter. You'll have to install aftermarket gauges because the factory ECU is needed to drive them.
thats not entirely true
you can use the standalone to run the engine, and use the ECU to control everything else.
you dont pull out the existing computer, but instead mount the standalone elsewhere (like in the glove box) and make your own engine harness from that.
everything but your tachometer 'should' work.
as I said, if you're going with a standalone, you will have to convert to a 93 DIS module, and buy a 93 crank sensor. (I bought my DIS from the wrecker and had it tested at the auto parts store)
reason being, is in 96 GM, decided to be retarded and send all the signals through to the ECU first before sending any information back to the DIS module. with the current designed standalones (ie: holley, haltech.. not sure about anyone else) they require hi ref, low ref, EST, and Bypass to operate. None of which are present on the 96 DIS module. All thats present on 96 DIS's is Ignition 1 and Ignition 2. How are you supposed to connect 4 wires to 2?
other then stealing the wiring harness from the crank sensor to the DIS, and stealing the 6 pin pigtail from said DIS, the factory power and ground are still OK to use.
If you're interested, I have the diagram for both 96 and 93 DIS modules.
yeah i figured that. but then i can make a sweet gauge cluster instead of having pods everywhere. LoL.
if i have gauges to monitor all the important stuff i won't need a warning light anyways.
as for the CEL light i meant i could just get rid of the bulb for now until i get the full stand alone working.
another question. what happens if i plug up the egr hole instead of plumbing it into the intake mani? will if cause somekind of crazy back pressure?
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no, it would be just like choking it off altogether.. gases wont flow through it.
I'm not sure what your EGR solenoid would think of that (or rather the computer for that matter)
that's what i thought. i would be interested in the wiring diagrams for the 96 and 93. i have the 93 dis already i just gotta get a 93 crank sensor now.
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