WEll im creating this thread basicly to get some research and to hopefully get some questions answered... please dont flam!

Well first of all i have a 1999 OHV automatic cavalier. It sadly has only a cold air intake, and a replacement muffler. All stock headers, cat, and tubing. In hopefully a year or so i plan on getting a full custom exhaust , paecesetter polished header, high flow cat, resonator, 2.25" tubing and a oval magnaflow muffler with tip. This i know will help out my bottom end power. This is what i have in mind for my car! 200 if possible N/A engine! Now away form the future and on with the questions i mostly am going to look into the head first!

As of now im looking into what does what with the head! So fare i understand valves, springs, Patriat PnP header, valve guides, and thats about it for the valve train. Now i read 2 or 3 threads about the head ... Soem people say the stuff on Jbodyperformance such as the 1.6:1 roller rockers will hurt my performance but then a different one contredits it by saying it will help with it. So are they good or bad? any tips or anything that can help me out here?
Also about the head ... i read the rockers adjustmant for my engine ... if i do this and tighten them down more ... will i get a little more power? will i need to get better plugs due to im running rich already? i dont know the AFR as of now but i know for a fact im running rich because of the left of gas smell.

So with the push rods ... ive read things about having push rods to long with to long of a stroke and the end product is having a valve hit the piston top. Do i need to upgrade these? what should i look into? i plan on getting 10.5:1 compression pistons to as high as 12:1 pistons.

Also high revolustion lifters... Needed? will i need them if i get a different cam? these are the most confussing to me!

ok sence i mentioned the cam before ... should i get a specific grind/lifing cam? i see a stage two cam on jbodyperformance for 315 bucks. Any good or not worth the mod?

iknow i need new vlaves ... would getting 1mm oversized valves help me or hurt me?

with all of these mods will i be lucky if i get 200hp with proper tunning from Hptuners?

if any one witch knows everything/any thing of the questionsd im asking please help! im trying to get a head start on how this engine works and understand what will hep or hurt me. Thanks to all that can respond!

wow,

well first off the pacesetter header will not give you anymore bottom end, and will in fact ROB your bottom end. I can assure you that. My pacesetter is a 4-1 long tube design, and Im certain you're referring to the same one. Expect the pacesetter to give you more top end and less bottom end.

there's been some discussion as to whether or not the jbodyperformance high revolution lifters are infact anything 'higher' or 'better' then stock at all. We've come across this great idea for using LT1 lifter springs inside OHV lifter bodies, but no one has yet to prove it to work. I think there are a couple JBO members ready to try them, but not ready to throw the engine in yet.

1.6:1 rockers will not 'hinder' your performance, they increase your lift ratio from your stock 1.54:1 (iirc). Thus allowing the valve to open more, and 'essentially' allow more air to be drawn in. However, this is not where you gain as much. The true gain is in the roller tip and roller fulcrum rockers which decrease the rotational mass on the engine. That has been said on here to improve performance as much or more so then a higher lift. (sans duration)

in terms of the length of pushrods, unless you decide on getting a performance cam/regrind, there is no need to get custom length pushrods. If all you're deciding to do is a higher ratio rocker, then it is not necessary. A regrind changes the 'center of rotation' and in turn a longer pushrod must be used to compensate for the change in centers and allow that greater lift the regrind uses.

I think most of this information is accurate, and from what I've learned is mostly been from the OHV old guys haha

when I say 'we've' come across the idea for LT1 springs, I mean NOT me

stevefire wrote:The true gain is in the roller tip and roller fulcrum rockers which decrease the rotational mass on the engine.

Close. A major portion of the gain comes from having a roller fulcrum (roller tip really doesn't do much) on the 2.2L, but the 2200 comes with this stock. Also, it reduces friction, not neccessarily mass.

Now, to pick apart the original post:

rawkfist wrote:WEll im creating this thread basicly to get some research and to hopefully get some questions answered... please dont flam!

There's no flaming in OHV posts It seems like you've done a little reading through our discussions on here, but you're being confused by a lot of the mechanics of the engine. I'll first suggest doing a little research on exactly how your motor works, and how each piece interacts with the others. This will give you a better understanding to what and why certain parts will increase performance.

rawkfist wrote:Well first of all i have a 1999 OHV automatic cavalier. It sadly has only a cold air intake, and a replacement muffler. All stock headers, cat, and tubing.

We've all been there, congratulations on not giving up already lol.

rawkfist wrote:In hopefully a year or so i plan on getting a full custom exhaust , paecesetter polished header, high flow cat, resonator, 2.25" tubing and a oval magnaflow muffler with tip. This i know will help out my bottom end power.

As Steve said, this will not help your bottom end, it will actually be detrimental to it. However, HP lies in high rpm, so power down low will have to be sacrificed (you can't have it all with NA small displacement motors). Also, a polished pacesetter header will rust through in a week lol, you want the coated version. If you want polished, buy from a company that uses stainless steel.

rawkfist wrote:This is what i have in mind for my car! 200 if possible N/A engine!

I'm hoping this is at the crank and not the wheels? 200whp could be done, but the car may not be extremely 'street-friendly' in the end...

rawkfist wrote:As of now im looking into what does what with the head! So fare i understand valves, springs, Patriat PnP header, valve guides, and thats about it for the valve train. Now i read 2 or 3 threads about the head ... Soem people say the stuff on Jbodyperformance such as the 1.6:1 roller rockers will hurt my performance but then a different one contredits it by saying it will help with it. So are they good or bad? any tips or anything that can help me out here?

Instead of going in to it in great depth, I'm just going to suggest staying away from BJP products. They have shown some quality-control issues in the past, and off-the-shelf parts they combine have had some complications. Besides, anything they sell can be had elsewhere, and for a LOT less $$$. The reason you're getting conflicting results on whether certain rockers will free up some hp is because the two different versions of the LN2 have very different rockers stock. The pre-98 had el-cheapo stamped 1.5 rockers, while the 98+ had a roller fulcrum with a higher ratio. This means that the earlier motors will benefit from anything else, but the 2200 has higher restrictions. First, you don't want to downgrade to the 'Magnum' rockers (like offered from JBP), as your will have increased friction at the fulcrum, reducing your power. Also, going to 1.5:1 ratio (unless it is accompanied b a proper cam) will reduce your valve lift and VE. So, the 2200 pretty much has no other choice but a full-roller, self-guided, 1.6 setup. This will give lower friction, higher lift, and a more accurate ratio (something the stockers lack).
2. Patriot does p&p'ed HEADS, not HEADERS
3. As far as valves, guides, springs, locks, and retainers go...to make things simple, just go wth some 1mm oversized valves. The whole spring ordeal will drive you nuts. However, for 200whp, you'll need more rpm, which shouldn't/can't be done on stock springs.

rawkfist wrote:Also about the head ... i read the rockers adjustmant for my engine ... if i do this and tighten them down more ... will i get a little more power? will i need to get better plugs due to im running rich already? i dont know the AFR as of now but i know for a fact im running rich because of the left of gas smell.

NO! DO NOT TIGHTEN THEM DOWN MORE!!!!! This will cause your valves to stay open AT ALL TIMES, and will KILL your power output (aftermarket rockers only). Your plugs will be determined by other factors, like quality of gas and ignition timing, don't worry about them until the very end. If you smell gas, you probably either have a leak or a fried catalytic converter. Your engine does run rich at higher RPM, but I've never smelled it really...
I feel this would be a good time to mention that your first purchases should be the HP Tuners software, and a wideband O2 system. They are pricey, but they are necessary for good power, and they'll work if you decide to go turbo instead (more on this later )

rawkfist wrote:So with the push rods ... ive read things about having push rods to long with to long of a stroke and the end product is having a valve hit the piston top. Do i need to upgrade these? what should i look into? i plan on getting 10.5:1 compression pistons to as high as 12:1 pistons.

I'll skip the pushrod section, as Steve covered it already, except that I have to add, too much lift causes valve-piston intereference, proper adjustment with any pushrod will not cause what you said.
With the pistons...what gasoline grade is available? I'd say the most you can get away with on 91-93 octane is 11:1, and even then you may need some ignition retard. I'd go with 11:1 with your stated goals.

rawkfist wrote:Also high revolustion lifters... Needed? will i need them if i get a different cam? these are the most confussing to me!

Like Steve said, slow's found a solution to this, although with stock springs and rev-limiter the stock lifters are fine.

rawkfist wrote:ok sence i mentioned the cam before ... should i get a specific grind/lifing cam? i see a stage two cam on jbodyperformance for 315 bucks. Any good or not worth the mod?

Send in your stock cam to be reground by Crane. MadJAck has posted good info on reccomended specific grinds, look around for one of those posts. You'll probably end up with either his grind or mine.

rawkfist wrote:iknow i need new vlaves ... would getting 1mm oversized valves help me or hurt me?

More airflow=help. Also, the undercut stainless material will decrease stem wear and increase airflow.

rawkfist wrote:with all of these mods will i be lucky if i get 200hp with proper tunning from Hptuners?

From what we've seen from the few engines that have gone through a similar process, it could be close. There are other things that have to be worked out, like oiling, and specifics like your cam grind will have different effects.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

well this is the thing! i understand most of it now! The reson i ask is mostly because its going to be an all out deal! so when every i start to build up the engine isn't going to be ... like when i get money more parts ordered.

Sorry about mistakes i ment heads from patriat. This is the first thing im getting! and well i want to build up the intire head BEFORE i install it i want it to be built to when i need it to be down the line! just saving me time by doing it all at once then ripping it all apart everytime i get new parts. This goes for for the bottom end of the engine, i want to get a block from some one/ some were and build it up install the head and just swap the intire engine out and install the new bad boy!

about the polished header... i mean as in polished ceramic coated header from paceseater. idk if its a 4-2-1 or if its a 4-1. ive seen both but ill look into that more.

i dont know much about wide band 02 sensers ... what are those? ive seen them at aplus but never fully understood what it was.

ill try to find that cam regrind thread and write it all down.

Also as stated above i said block i mean a full engine! maybe a engine that had a piston blow up or something. This way i have the intire engine to rip apart. i will be able to send the cam in for a regrind, and rebuild the block all with out pulling my engine apart and waiting weeks to get the cam back and the car on the road. im kind of contemplating on what i want first... hp or show quality? i guess i can have both just have the progress move slower.

ok enough of the chitchate and on with more questions. (sorry if there are just so many questions but i need to find out and i guess maybe other will learn from this)

ok now for the roller rockers... were would i even begin to look for those?

this lifter thing your talking about ... is there any way you can go more in depth with it? im completly clueless on what your trying to say! If that is'nt for me and i get one of those grind settings that you or that other guy had will i need higher rpm lifters? i plan on upping the rpms to were i can get the most out of it so i guess this might play a roll some were in here.

if i get you the specks of the cam grind, is there any way you would be able to help me find the push rods i need?

more to come later ... going to be late for work!

If you're wanting to raise your rev limiter beyond 6200 rpm or whatever it is stock, you're going to want to stay away from valve float. Valve float is generally caused by the valve spring not being able to close the valve quick enough within the engines cycle. (there are other reasons, such as slope angle, lift, etc, too) One solution is to outfit yourself with stiffer valve springs.

Stiffer valve springs put extra pressure on the lifters (which ride on the cam). The extra pressure is often too much for stock lifters to work against, and end up seizing or collapsing.

JBP thinks they have offered a solution with their "HO" lifters. Which, as I said ealier, haven't been proven to be anything other then stock replacements with a fancy name (and a friggin high pricetag!)

Slowolej has come up with a solution for this using lifter springs from LT1's. The lifter body diameter between the LN2 and the LT1 are apparently the same thus making the internal spring the same diameter. No one's been able to test them on their engine yet, but me personally am going to wait for success stories before I go 'upgrading'.

Wideband o2 sensors when fixed with a gauge/controller, give you an exact air to fuel ratio. (always ##:1) General rule of thumb is our engines idle at 14.7:1. A lower number such as 12:1 would be considered a richer mixture then 14.7:1. A higher number such as 15.4:1 is said to be 'lean'. (actually unless you're in decleration anything past 14.7:1 is probably fatal if under load)

They're a great tool for tuning your 'brand spanking new engine'

I wouldn't recommend you buying a used engine that has had a 'piston let go'. Instead buy a running engine from the wrecker, foot the extra cash, and at least that way you've got some sort of garauntee that there aren't any spun bearings.

Spun bearings, and that $400 running engine is now only worth say $100 for a block. The crank would more then likely be fried. (that sucks)

I bought a running engine from the wrecker for $400 and all I reused was the block and the crank. (not even the head) It came with a 90 day garauntee.

thanks for the informations! now i know were the lifters go lol (seriusly i didn't know that im use to working on just trannies not so much engines. and when i do work on engines its like ... oil changes, air filters, new oil pans nothing really large. I honestly want a FRESHLY built engine. i know its going to take me a while to get the cash i need for a fordged crank rods, pistons, and all new valve train but agaian this is why im researching now... and wil be able to buy everything at once and install the intire rebuilt engine. So i guess if a engine i get has spon bearings... oh well ill be replacing it any ways plus i would be able to maybe use the crank as a core. ill deside that stuff later now on with more questions.

ok so most of the questions that are still out there un answered still up for help.

now this one is a basic yes or no question..
in the head you have the cam ... all spinning from the timming chain from the crank. Now from there the lifters actually make contact with the rotating cam... thus puching the roller rockers, which push the push rods which push the valves. And as the cam roatates to close the valves the springs bring it back and then on and on. Is this right? if not please correct!

ok now about the vlave statment about the "floating valve" all i need to when uping the rpms is to get those stiffer springs?

ok now please i need some one to go into depth about spring retainers, locker, and what not! I know what retainers are slightly just because from a class i took last year we ripped apart a lawn mower engine and i had a hell of a time getting those stupid things in the right spot.

also again i dont know about how much this will help or not seeing as how i dont know how to drive stick yet ... but if i upgrade to stick, drive it for like a year and practice launches and all that will this hurt or help me? i drove my mom VW bug which is stick but idk it seemed alot unlike a normal car ... you had to push the clutch pedal in REALLY fare before it worked and then it took forever to disingage. idk if this is how its suppose to be again i only rip them apart and rebuild them with my dad.

compression related ... now this is really something i need to know ... seeing as how im getting higher lift cam grind, higher compression pistons, and i want to shave the head .010 and get a thiner gasket ... will i need to worry about piston valve contact? if i shaved the head and got thinner gasket will it give me more power or will it be pointless? im kind of the guy that wants to know if there will be a gain and if not i wont do it because something might go wrong. please help on this!

also idk whats going on with this but if you look on JBP web site there is a polished valve cover. It stated something about not having to modify the cover if i bought the rockers from there ... the started with a M. if i upgrade the rockers will i need to modify the cover or is this a BS part thats just like the stock on?

jw not to consered about it but will i need larger injectors? or can i just tune that with HPTuners? i believe i can tweek with timing retard, is there away to do it on the cam? just dont have the dots lined up?

sorry if none of this makes sence I think its like the lawn mower engine were on the crank gear there is a dot and on the cam gear there is a dot and you make sure those are right. maybe there not and again this is why im asking questions

Now with all of this said and done will i need to upgrade fuel? such as like running premium compared to my unleaded now? will i be able to stay at this level? does any one know what the octane of unleaded gas is? if no answer i will ask people at my wok (i work at a gas station) and at my dads shop.

i believe this is all the questions ... if theres more ill post them ... if theres ANY comments as to what i can do to help this all out please say them! i will take any ideas as long as it sticks with NA OHV engine! THERE WILL BE NO SWAPING ENGINES!! i cant say the no turbo lol this might get added down the line just testing how fare an OHV engine can go and proving people wrong! theres no turning back! before i do the swap (all depending on tranny and when it gets swapped in) i will dyno it before i swap the new bad boy in, and then a swap after the built engine is in to show the nice step it took!

Thanks again for all help!

Quote:

in the head you have the cam ... all spinning from the timming chain from the crank. Now from there the lifters actually make contact with the rotating cam... thus puching the roller rockers, which push the push rods which push the valves. And as the cam roatates to close the valves the springs bring it back and then on and on. Is this right? if not please correct!

Not exactly. The cam is in the block and the pushrods go up into the head where they push on the rockers which push the valves.

Quote:

compression related ... now this is really something i need to know ... seeing as how im getting higher lift cam grind, higher compression pistons, and i want to shave the head .010 and get a thiner gasket ... will i need to worry about piston valve contact? if i shaved the head and got thinner gasket will it give me more power or will it be pointless? im kind of the guy that wants to know if there will be a gain and if not i wont do it because something might go wrong. please help on this!

Correct me on this as I'm not 100% sure. You shouldn't have issues with valves hitting the pistons unless your timing is really messed up. You might gain a little power from the shaved head and thinner gasket, but definitely more with the high compression pistons. Detonation might become an issue with these mods.

Quote:

sorry if none of this makes sence I think its like the lawn mower engine were on the crank gear there is a dot and on the cam gear there is a dot and you make sure those are right. maybe there not and again this is why im asking questions

Yes the orientation of these marks makes a huge difference. They make it easy for you to get the crank and cam aligned so that the cam timing is correct. I don't know the correct orientation for the OHV so other guys feel free to provide input.

Quote:

Now with all of this said and done will i need to upgrade fuel? such as like running premium compared to my unleaded now? will i be able to stay at this level? does any one know what the octane of unleaded gas is? if no answer i will ask people at my wok (i work at a gas station) and at my dads shop.

I'm assuming you are referring to the premium sold at gas stations? Premium is usually 93 vs 87 or 89 for regular. Switching to premium is probably your best bet if you plan on increasing the compression significantly.



New sig in the works.

oh my

According to the picture in your sig, you dont even have a tach. You need one if you're concerned at all about 'revving the piss' out of your OHV

here, I found thisneat link that might help you understand your engine better.

and this one

The best advice I can give you is this: I very much BELIEVE that a 200whp N/A OHV is possible. Especially if you don't care about throwing emissions, fuel economy, and some amount of daily convenience out the window. But, PATIENCE, and researching before you get into anything is the key. Some surprises are going to come up in any build, but if you've taken the time to thoroughly know your stuff before actually touching any hard parts, it will go a lot easier. Some knowledge can only be gained through personal experience, but this wonderful thing we call the internet allows you to quickly learn about many others experiences as well. What might have taken someone 2 years of work to figure out, you know have a headstart on. In the end you should wind up spending a lot more time learning than you actually do building.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

scarab... when you say daily convenience... what do you mean? also with the fuel economy ... how much will this hurt me? i still will get better gas milage then my rents but i dont want to jump to like 10 miles per gallon city eacher. You have a nice speach there and your right! To this stuff it comes easy to some people ... others it takes a while! This is why im asking questions for those of who have ripped apart the engine and rebuilt them. The rebuilding part is what i learn from the best! so im basicly takeing a starting course on how things work by having you nice jbo people to help me out .

Steve fire ... this i know! right now no need for a tach. i have auto no need for shifting points as of now! when i get manual/ the bigger engine i will deffenatly have a tach some were in my car! probly going to customize the gauge cluster bezel on the right side of the steering wheel were the vent should go if i have to get a huge 5 incher ... i hate the way they look tho!

ok back to subject ... ok no im really confussed! With my question on how everything goes with the valve train ... only the pushrods, rockers,cams and valves were listed ... were are the lifters? same ordeal with those diagrams ... i see no lifters in there

about product even though im along ways away ... i kind of need an estamite on how much it will cost ... im contemplating body kit before or after engine ... is this site good ... they have some products at lower the JBP prices ... www.howellautomotive.com They really only have rockers (please choose the best one idk anything about those as of rigth now), connecting rods, lifters (if i actualy need them seing as how i dont know were they go), 10:1 compression pistons and push rods.

im very sorry if one this is repetatize or two i dont understand it as much as most people do.
Thanks for those of you who helped me to get this fare!

stevefire wrote:oh my

You took the words right out of my mouth (I actually said it out loud...multiple times). I could have sworn we had answered a few of those questions...and there were a few that just...ugh. You work at a gasoline station, but you don't know how gasoline ratings work? Also, I know it sounds picky (but my head hurts right now), use the spell check function, or at least double-check what you've written. It's not bad when posts are only a couple lines, but reading through all that is actually painful.
I'm going to make a suggestion, one that I'm sure the more 'experienced' here will agree with...get a junkyard engine and tear the whole thing apart (and take lots of pictures along the way). This way you can visualize how everything works together. Also, maybe you should drop your expectations a little. Do a mild build on the engine (readily available parts), and see how far you get. The reason I say this is because we have yet to find any good combinations of valves/retainers for the 2200, and if you plan on raigin your rev limiter and running a wild cam, they will be essential. Without a completely custom valvetrain, a wild cam or higher revs would be impossible, and you'd probably be stuck around 160-170hp. Also, you mentioned 10:1 compression in your last post. That's far from pushing the envelope, and there isn't a whole lot of power to be made with only that 1 point jump. You'll definately feel it (it will be more like a DOHC J motor), but trying to go wild in other areas would almost be pointless. For instance, you mentioned getting a forged crank. I'm going to guess you haven't read any of the posts where I broughT up the problem with that...Nobody makes one, and a custom unit will run you $2500+ (not to mention the stock crank should be able to hold 400hp with some machine work).
PLEASE go through all the old OHV threads and read up. I would reccommend (more like require) reading of MadJack's rocker arm thread, the 2200 valve spring thread, the 2200 power record thread, HotRod's LS1 rocker arm thread, and any other post with "OHV" in it which exceeded 2 pages.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

well said, I think the fact is the newer OHV folks don't know the bases have been covered on here already (many times before).

part of the problem exists where theres a lot of reading of info but not a lot of retention.

If theres certain terminology I'm un familiar with, I will honestly go and GOOGLE that word, to see what I come up with.

Taking certain steps to understand the information provided is beyond what any of us can actually teach you.

Like Notec said, you're almost better off doing a mild build and some sort of power adder. (dare I even suggest it?)

More homework is needed as to how your LN2 works before 'building a 200hp pushrodder'

i will read up more ... the main reason i started the thread was one to ask questions and two to see how fare a NA OHV can go. im not wanting to go that fare! that was the cut line. i would love to just have 150 or so. its better then the amount i have now and i will be able to spank some Honda's and a couple other cars around the area. I guess if i wish to go higher ill invest in a turbo and take the easy way out

PNP head with stock internals and a turbocharger with fordged internals coming my way.

ill try to get a head from a friend of mine and rip it apart i understand how the block works now after doing a little search on google. we can let this thread die if you wish ...

sorry about spelling ... a little tired and forgot to hit the spell check.

Good thread!


N2O + Bolt-ons = 220Hp/250Tq

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