Im having this issue right now with installing my Haltech E6GMX (standalone)

I've had to convert to an older style Ignition Module.

What happened in 96 is the Crank Trigger signal is sent to the PCM before it is sent to the ICM. This wont work with the Haltech as it needs 4 wires from the Ignition Module in order to send information BACK to control timing, etc.

the Haltech requires:
1) Crank Signal +
2) Crank Signal GND
3) EST; and
4) Bypass

I've hooked these 4 wires up correctly to my Haltech from the 93 ICM (I've quadruple checked), and made/ran a custom harness from the Crank Sensor to the 93 ICM.

The Factory Power and Ground to the ICM remained the same, and I've double checked it with a Multimeter.

Why am I not getting any spark, and why am I not getting any signal to my Haltech?

Are GM DIS systems 'smart igniters' or 'dumb igniters'? I've set the haltech up for Smart Ignitors (Or; Constant Duty)

It was on Constage Charge when I first cranked it over, so I could see the possibility of me frying my 93 ICM somehow.

Has anyone else ever converted back before? I know Todd is running a Standalone, but I can't get ahold of him so easily.

Any information is appreciated.

I'll post the wiring diagrams ASAP.

shown below this is what I have for my 93 ICM wiring:


and this is my 96 ICM wiring:


I think what I may need to do is convert to a 93 crank sensor, and get rid of the 96 sensor.

as far as i know GM DIS is a "waste spark" system or dumb igniter but dont hold me to that as its been awhile since i've read into it all.

imo the 93 will be a different sensor due to the odb1 - 2 change so i would change that out from the 96 to the 93


_______________________
** Flat Broke Racing Inc.**

It is a waste spark system, and there is a difference between the two CPS's. I don't know what it is, they have different part numbers, so it may just be a idfferent number, and they're exactly the same (typical GM).

Ok we've got spark now, but are you sure they're a dumb igniter? I thought they were smart igniters?

What I did to get spark was convert my 96 crank sensor to a 93 (it was less then $40)

I need to figure out why I don't have fuel now

The older systems do not use "smart coils." The "smart coils" can be found on the LS family of engines. Dwell and coil saturation are handled within the coil, and the ignition module is merely a triggering device. As to Haltech's term "smart ignitors" you may need to find something more technical than that to ask about. After all, when you can't make 'em work, they're all "dumb ignitors." The term may refer to whether the ECM needs to control dwell or not, and in the case of the older DIS it doesn't matter. The electronics of the ignition module take care of that job.

The 93 DIS module does not have "crank sensor +" and "crank sensor gnd" outputs. That module interfaces with an ecm just like the older HEI distributors. The module you replaced relies on sending crank signals directly to the pcm. The 93 ICM outputs a square wave pulsed signal with a falling edge 60 deg BTDC (or possibly 50 deg, look in the LN2 history page regarding crankshaft notch positions). This reference pulse is then used as the beginning of a countdown timer with each fraction of a second equalling a specific number of crankshaft degrees. When enough time has passed, a pulse is delivered to the ICM and spark is generated at the desired point in degrees BTDC. With the bypass line disconnected the module should generate spark at TDC. If you connect the DIS system like an HEI distributor with a 60 deg reference angle you should get spark and fuel.

Also notice that the 96 crank sensor is a Hall effect sensor and the 93 sensor is a magnetic reluctor sensor. The Hall Effect sensor generates a square pulse, 0V then 5V then 0V, when the notch in the crank passes under the sensor. The magnetic sensor generates an A/C voltage which goes from 0V to positive peak then crosses 0V to go to negative peak then returns to 0V. The ignition module relies on the crossing from positive peak to negative peak to determine when a crank notch has passed under the sensor. Because the Hall Effect sensor does not generate this crossing, the older ignition module does not know what's going on relativ to crank position.

Good luck and stay patient.

-->Slow

what we've done so far was made a mark on the crank pulley and the timing cover for #1 TDC and used a timing light to see if our timing was 'close' to 10-15 degrees advance. The first time I cranked the engine over, we were really close to 15 degrees advance (it was very close), but I noticed the Haltech wasn't turned on. Once turning the Haltech on, the timing never changed at all. We did this to see if we were even remotely close for timing, whereas if we were way off the timing marks wouldn't line up as close as they do.

Is it at all possible that the Haltech isn't putting out a Bypass signal to the ICM?

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/GM_DIS.htm

according to this link 'all GM DIS 4 Cyl.' sync notches occur 70 degrees AFTER TDC cyl. #1. Why/how could they make such a generalization? Why would they be all the same?

In terms of the Haltech requiring Crank Signal and Crank GND, I was told to connect them to High Ref for the Signal and Low Ref for the GND.

The Difference between the Smart Ignitors and Dumb Ignitors has to do with how they control dwell time, and I can't remember which is which right now. (My Manual is in the garage, and its 4am) I'll check that out and get back to you.

I'm getting an RPM signal into the Haltech now, and I'm also getting spark since converting to the 93 sensor. So far we've tried 70* BTDC, 10*, and 20*. Just to see if we could get it to fire.

The only problem now is there isn't ANY fuel getting into the cylinders after cranking. Normally if it wasn't firing the plugs would get 'wet' and it'd be obvious there's fuel getting to them. For whatever reason the Injector Drivers on the Haltech are not putting out a signal. (though the injector duty cycle numbers on the Haltech program increase anywhere from 2% - 4% while I'm cranking)

Are Side Fed injectors High Impedance or Low Impedance? I've checked them with an Ohm meter and they appear to be low impedance. Can someone just quickly varify this for me? Its a newb question to ask, but I have to be certain I've got the Haltech set correctly.

oops sync notch = sync pulse.. i'm tired

Take a look at this page and see if it helps at all.

The MS info is not universally correct. With a 4 cylinder engine there are 180 crankshaft degrees between TDC events. If a notch is placed 60 deg BTDC, it is also placed 180 - 60 or 120 deg ATDC. With the 60 deg V6 firing events occur 120 deg apart. If a notch is placed 60 deg BTDC it's also placed 60 deg ATDC. In the case where a notch is placed at 50 deg BTDC it's also at 70 deg ATDC. But they're even more wrong if they're forgetting about 8 cyl engines which only have 90 deg between firing events, or if they don't mention the Buick V6 family which uses a different DIS which generates a pulse 33 deg BTDC.

I've spent years learning this. I even developed a special DIS simulator using a machined steel wheel and a crank sensor to generate DIS pulses to an ICM to measure what happens. I'm a bit off on the later 2.2 crank notch position though. I don't work with those often. You're correct about the 70 deg notch location.

If the timing is fixed at 10 deg BTDC then I'll guess (1) your timing pulse occurs @ 70 deg BTDC, (icm delivers pulse at 70-10 = 60) and (2) the haltech isn't generating a bypass signal. The stock side feed injectors are high impedance... about 12 - 16 Ohms each. The TBI replacements are very low impedance, about .8 - 1.2 Ohms each.

If the guys at Haltech told you how to wire up the crank sensor inputs they're probably right. I just wanted to make sure you knew the difference between the types of signals in case it didn't work. Can you use a laptop to watch the Haltech? Can you see if it's registering engine rpm?

Here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking the Haltech isn't recognizing the crank signal for some reason. You seem to have no ignition control and no fuel delivery. Find some way to double check the wiring and initial setup, using a GM distributor as the connection type.

-->Slow

The Haltech is seeing RPM, while cranking I get abotu 250-265 RPM, and it shows up on my laptop.

Its very weird, I'm thinking I should get a noid bulb and test my injector harnesses

Also I'm getting 2-4% duty cycle on my injectors as per my laptop as well. (go figure)

Thanks for your help so far Slow, I'll probably have a few more questions after dinner

alright, so I'm going to have to search the program to find the crank sensor type and change it from hall effect to a magnetic reluctor

taken right from the Haltech Manual:

Output Type:
This field defines the type of ignition signal with which the ECU will drive the igniter.

Constant Duty - This Signal is used to drive intelligent igniters with internal dwell control.

Constant Charge - This Signal is used to drive dumb igniters without internal dwell control. This output type will not accurately control intelligent igniters.

Warning; the Constant Duty Output Type should not be used to drive dumb igniters since such igniters do not have dwell control. Doing so will result in total failure of the igniter.


so, what type should I be selecting?

Hokay...
First, I just looked at that MS page. The kewl pictures of the DIS wheel and the graph showing the injector events, crank notch timing, and ignition timing are copies of scans I made of a couple of different books I have here at the house. The original images were uploaded to the GMECM web site several years ago.

Using the Haltech info, and knowing that the GM DIS module controls dwell, I'd select the constant duty option first. The Haltech should be adjusted (if possible) to trigger on the falling edge of the output signal.

Looking through the manual online, here's how I'd set it up.

1) Batch fire injector mode. Yep... I know what the manual says, but many of the OE setups were batch fired MPFI. And you'll need all the help you can get with those injectors in terms of minimum injector pulse times.

2) Ignition divide by = 1

3) Zero throttle map = disabled

4) Throttle pump deadband = 4%

5) Full Throttle threshold = 95%

6) Barometric lock = disabled

7) Trigger angle = 70 deg BTDC Yes, I know that I said 50 deg was probably right. But I'm at home now and I can look through my notes.

8) Lock Timing = no

9) Spark mode = Distributor (cannot be altered)

10) Output Type = Constant Duty

11) Output Edge = Falling

12) Constant Duty Cycle = 50% (GM Quad 4 code supplies a 50% duty cycle to the IDI / DIS module)

13) Trigger Type = Standard (can't be altered)

14) Trigger Input = Hall Effect (can't be altered)

15) Trigger Edge = Falling

16) Trigger Pull Up = Off

17) Auxilliary Output Function = Ignition Bypass (Bypass must be connected to pin D5) Also note that the ignition timing will not be controlled by the ecm unless engine rpm is above 500.

18) Aux Out Voltage = 0 - 5V

19) Select 8A injector peak.

HTH

-->Slow

awesome, you're the man slow, thanks very much!!

Actually my Ignition divide by was set to 4! I figured out last night that was wrong. I honestly thought it would have been 2.

Haltech says that generally the ignition divide by is set to half the # of cylinders.

But I will try these new settings and report back to you

thanks again! I owe you big time!!

Steve

ok so I've set it up with everything you've listed, and triple checked everything.

My duty cycle now reads somewhere around 60-80% when I'm cranking.

My problem now is that my battery is pooched Cranking it over too many times, killing it, and recharging it. She's dead.

I'm off to the store to pick up another battery.

Once I'm certain its not due to the fact I can't crank my engine over for more then 2 seconds, I'm going to be buying a noid bulb set to test my injector harness. I'll change the pins at the haltech to ensure they're getting positive contact, and basically go from there.

Thanks for your help so far, this is what the ORG should be all about

cheers, and many thanks.

-Steve-

Alright, cranking over and still not getting anything from the injectors.

displayed on my laptop, I see Injection Time increase, and Duty Cycle increase.

The Noid Bulb does NOT light up at all.

I've constructed a miniature harness that consists of Injector Driver 1, Injector Driver 2, and a ground.

Everything else seems to be working fine, except the haltech just can't/wont send a signal through the harness.

What gives?

I caught a wiring slip up which included my ground wire on the injector harness getting a 5v signal. That shouldn't screw anything up should it? It just didn't complete the circuit (or so I think)

any thoughts

Make sure your injector power wire has power, both at key on and during cranking.

Slow

Quote:

I caught a wiring slip up which included my ground wire on the injector harness getting a 5v signal.

is there any fuses on the board of the haltech at all? if says it sending out a signal, it is, but to where is the enxt question, you have a volt meter you could check to see where it is coming from? the injectors you are using now are they high or low imp? are you using a reisistor box?


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the haltech remains on when I'm cranking, thus it should be sending signal to the injectors.

sounds like its fried somehow internally.

The online manual doesn't have a wiring diagram, but most controllers are set up to operate the ground side of the injectors. If that's the case you need to have a good supply of power for the injectors at all times and is able to maintain close to battery voltage during cranking. If the Haltech controls the ground side of the injectors then you need to make sure there's a very good ground wire for the Haltech, and you should check to see if they use a dedicated ground line for the injector drivers and make sure it's installed and good. There was also mention in the manual about being able to command the injectors on or off using a laptop connected to the ecu for testing... that might come in very handy.

If all else fails try connecting a wire from the battery to the noid light, then from the noid light directly to the injector control pin at the ecu. That will eliminate all the wiring and tell you whether or not the ecu is actually turning the injectors on.

Good luck.

-->Slow