Basically, are the gains from porting and polishing your own head, like in the standard abrasives kit, with the money involved with that + time, equal out or surpass the Patriot ported head on my 2200? (links below) Also, the patriot head has been suggested by a few to us OHV guys and i was wondering if anyone still around has one and how it did perform? I know Cory Forson got one, but there's nothing listed to contact him about it. Maybe if someone who knows him could point him my direction as well?
Thanks alot guys
Patriot head
I have the Patriot head for my Ecotec. Looks good but no results yet
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Riley Webb wrote:Basically, are the gains from porting and polishing your own head, like in the standard abrasives kit, with the money involved with that + time, equal out or surpass the Patriot ported head on my 2200? (links below) Also, the patriot head has been suggested by a few to us OHV guys and i was wondering if anyone still around has one and how it did perform? I know Cory Forson got one, but there's nothing listed to contact him about it. Maybe if someone who knows him could point him my direction as well?
Thanks alot guys
Patriot head
I have a patriot head sitting in my garage, waiting for valves, valve springs and retainers.
most will not want to hear htis but there alot of horror stories about Patriot performance in the f-body world... and there valve train compents.... form what I've heard from an EXTREMELY reliablesorce they sell there valves and valve train for about 1/2 of what the actual cost SHOULD be... you figure that one out...
the patriot performance head is for the '97 and older 2.2L. I called them and confirmed this.
you can have a shop do a port job for you and stuff your own valvetrain in there (if you choose to go that far) you don't have to do it completely yourself.
Personally, if you don't have experience porting, I'd say don't do it.
Also, even if you do have experience porting, some finer points particular to the ecotec may escape you, and therefore the yield won't be as great as another person or shop who has experience with that kind of thing.
Thats my take on it anyway. Porting isn't just enlarging ports and smoothing edges, its an art form deeply rooted in the science of airflow.
I'm just saying it isn't easy to do, and sometimes even tho you think you're helping to smooth flow and increase breathing you could actually be hurting performance pretty badly.
when I had my 2200 in my cav, I had it ported by a shop with great results. With the ecotec however, I want to try a bare patriot stage II head and put my own valvetrain in it with stock cams (for the time being) and go from there.
but darkstars is making me do a bit more research before I invest.. is it just the valvetrain components that are poo?
I've personally seen there stage 2 eco head, the actuall port job LOOKS awsome, I'm still amazed how small the exhaust ports on an eco are though. the actual port job on it looks very very nice, there is next to no polishing done, and liek I said they sell there SS valves and @!#$ for way to cheap... so cheap its would be a multiple hundered dollar loss just to sell the stuff. I had heard about F-body guys not liking there stuff so I actually put some research into it its rare to find f-body people who are happy witht he product, many many people claim very inferior quality especially in the valvetrain going as far as to causing engine damage... personally if you rbuilding a 4 cylinder you shoudl be building it for boost, N/A 4 cylinders don't have alot of potential, forced induction IS the replacement for displacement, if your gonna boost it the port design doesn't need to be as precise as in N/A aplications... just get them big and open and let the boost do the rest. as long as your gonna boost it just take it a place that deals with porting heads and have them port it out and do the valve train. IMO no sence in paying way to much for way to little
Darkstars wrote:I've personally seen there stage 2 eco head, the actuall port job LOOKS awsome, I'm still amazed how small the exhaust ports on an eco are though. the actual port job on it looks very very nice, there is next to no polishing done, and liek I said they sell there SS valves and @!#$ for way to cheap... so cheap its would be a multiple hundered dollar loss just to sell the stuff. I had heard about F-body guys not liking there stuff so I actually put some research into it its rare to find f-body people who are happy witht he product, many many people claim very inferior quality especially in the valvetrain going as far as to causing engine damage... personally if you rbuilding a 4 cylinder you shoudl be building it for boost, N/A 4 cylinders don't have alot of potential, forced induction IS the replacement for displacement, if your gonna boost it the port design doesn't need to be as precise as in N/A aplications... just get them big and open and let the boost do the rest. as long as your gonna boost it just take it a place that deals with porting heads and have them port it out and do the valve train. IMO no sence in paying way to much for way to little
Yeah the ecotec exhaust ports are extremely small. When i took my head to be P&P i had them take the exhaust ports to the size of the gasket. So they opened my exhaust ports up about a 1/4" on the length and a 1/8" on the width. I meant to have them flow test it by i was in a bit of a crunch on time. I will try to get some pics up but it will only be of the intake ports since i don't want to take my turbo header off for those pics. But between getting my head P&P and valves installed plus price of valves i have about $850 in my head alone. I should be upgrading the valve springs, guides, and retainers when money permits
If your interested in custom aluminum tilt wheel levers hit me up!
So, i think then that we've established that using the Patriot head and/or parts isnt a very reliable or good idea. Now, I take the idea to have my head ported around here somewhere but i have no idea about machine shops here in Pittsburgh or any that are reliable for that matter. Is the real difference in performance on a PP head come from the rest of the Valve train parts? I've got Roller Rockers coming, but should i port the damn thing myself and spend the money on valves and springs/locks/retainers and such?
I have the stage II patriot head...
I wish I had put it on after I was boosted to gain some type of dyno results but I didn't so I can't say how much it has helped or not but I can say I have not had any problems with it.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
Hand porting by a knowledgeable "porter" will always come up with better numbers than a CNC'ed head. If you've never ported anything before, I'd advice practicing on an aluminum intake manifold or a junk head first..... THe other thing is, as PJ mentioned, you can think you're improving airflow, but without a flowbench to test as you go, you could end up hurting airflow more than improving it.
Find a local machine shop, preferably someone that does work on race cars, and who has good repute. Make sure that they know that you want a flowsheet before and after so you know you're getting what you paid for. Get the valvetrain components from Karo at Car Customs and give them to the shop to install. A 3 way valve job will be sufficient, but for best flow you can try a 5 angle, but DEFINITELY get the valves "back-cut". A good porter should be concerned mostly with the valve pocket area, specifically what is known as the "short side radius". Match port the intake side, but for the most part the intake port should be smoothed and imperfections removed, rather than trying to enlarge the port itself. DO NOT port-match the exhaust ports to the gasket, as this will cause reversion and hamper performance.... port match the header/manifold to the gasket all you want, but don't do it to the exhaust ports of the head. A good shop should know all this. Have the money put aside to do everything the first time. This isn't like a turbo system where you can always swap out to a bigger turbo that fits to the same manifold, the head is something you don't want to be removing often so get the whole 9 yards done the first time. Polish the chambers, deshroud the valves, etc.
then...... find a solid method to properly tune the engine afterwards
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Patriot heads are Tooooo expensive so I did my own. Can't say for sure the gains I got
but I'm happy with the results I see at the track.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
I have heard the horror stories...but I have also heard A LOT of good things about the parts. My former boss is using Patriot heads (see picture below) on a TT LS6 motor he is doing. If he didn't trust it, it wouldn't be on all his cars. The problem is when a few people have a problem people sometimes tend to exagerate their issues a bit and it ends up looking really bad. That being said I HAVE PERSONALLY seen one F-Body totally destroy a Patriot valvetrain at numbers that it should have laughed at easy. In that situation, like in mine, Patriot stepped up to repair the damage FOR FREE. You go find me a shop that will fix damage, caused by them or you, for free. It isn't going to happen. I know in my case the damage to the head was my own fault, as Ryan and Corey can attest to from all of our diagnosis. Yet the head is back at Patriot right now getting 2 new valves and some machine work done...at NO cost to me. That's customer service and wanting to keep the customer happy.
As for the picture of the LS6 head.....
this motor
is getting these heads
Patriot stage 3 CNC heads 2.08 intakes, Ti Retainers, .650" lift springs, special exhaust valves
More info on the car and build can be found
here
This car is expected to be approaching 600-700HP at 0 boost...and over 1100HP with boost. This car isn't getting waek parts. If he thought the heads weak, he'd get something else. PERIOD.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:DO NOT port-match the exhaust ports to the gasket, as this will cause reversion and hamper performance.... port match the header/manifold to the gasket all you want, but don't do it to the exhaust ports of the head.
You can enlarge the exhaust ports to the gasket if you want. You just have to make sure the header runner openings are opened up larger than the gasket (i.e. original pacesetter header on 2200 motors lol)
Also, remember that while you will get better flow with a 5-angle valve seat cut, there will also be more stress on it, so it will have to be re-machined more often. This is NOT a trade-off most would make on a street engine...you should probably just go with a 3-angle.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Does anyone know Cory Forson, or have his email address so's i could ask him what he thinks of the patriot head he got made for his 2200? Also, Whats a going rate for machine shops to PP someone's head? Probably depends on what i want done right?
if you guys wanna talk about $$ Jbody performance makes a head package with pistons, stage whatever cams and cam gears for like $3k
here's the link
it looks pretty sweet... hmmmm
JBP ecotec race head
<3
Riley Webb wrote:Does anyone know Cory Forson, or have his email address so's i could ask him what he thinks of the patriot head he got made for his 2200? Also, Whats a going rate for machine shops to PP someone's head? Probably depends on what i want done right?
You could try sending him a PM.
Machine shop charges will depend on the work, as well as the shop. Where you live will also make a big difference (supply & demand duh). For the most part, the "you get what you pay for" saying holds true. Look at maybe $500-$600 for a good thorough job. OR, ask around the local tracks for someone who does head work 'on the side'. Chances are you will find many people willing to do the work for a great price (just make sure you see exactly what quality work they do first).
I know Jackalope was offering basic port-matching and maybe some chamber work for $100, and Fatz is accepting business as well.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
i'm buying like 3 or 4 eco heads and then porting them out at school.
MY 2003 SUNFIRE 15.63@87.86mph
"A N/A ecotec is not gonna give Honda's and Mitsu's that much of a run for their
money unless their blown or bottle fed.GM is still smokin crack!"
~1QWKZ24
www.streetracing.org, 08/2001
How much is to much? My mentor was telling me to see exactly what all can be done, such as expanding the intake and/or exhaust ports, although ive already read, alot of people warn about doing this. And then the shops get valves and spring and all sorts of things like that to match the new dimensions, but can they do say stiffer springs and things like that? I'm guessing gain it depends on where its at.
Riley Webb wrote:How much is to much? My mentor was telling me to see exactly what all can be done, such as expanding the intake and/or exhaust ports, although ive already read, alot of people warn about doing this. And then the shops get valves and spring and all sorts of things like that to match the new dimensions, but can they do say stiffer springs and things like that? I'm guessing gain it depends on where its at.
It depends on the motor. Seeing as you're sporting the all-mighty OHV, most of you improvements will probably come from bowl work, not necessarily increased port size. You'll want to polish the combustion chambers and exhaust ports though, although the stock castings really aren't very textured, surprisingly.
Things like stiffer valvesprings will probably be a no-go from your local machine shop. There really isn't anything made specifically for our engines, but you can check out the 2200 power record, rocker arm list, and 2200 valve springs threads for more info on what we're working on fitting up.
As a side note, Riley, after reading your "about this car" section, Audi didn't make the A4 in '94. I have the 95 version, and it's a called a "90" model. The A4 didn't come out until the next year, although most of the mechanics on it are exactly the same, just a different body and front suspension. Also, be glad you got the Cav, the original Audi 12V 2.8L was a very poorly designed transition engine, only manufatured to make the 30-valve look better when it came out. It's under-powered, and built with shoddy tolerences and low-rent castings.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Well i searched the reginal forums for local machine shops, checked into 3 of them, and they all either advise me not to, won;t do it for my sake, or won't do it for their sake. I also got a response from Cory Forson who said that his head from Patriot had no problems and while he hadn't tested the head, there was some gains? I've emailed Patriot about the head, but with no response, so i will now call them about it. Now i don't want to insult people on here, but the guys that do head work probably know alot better than most of us if i should or should not and what i shoul/not do to my head. I'm looking at doing it myself now, a very mild w/e it is that i do. I had emailed Patriot for details on the head Cory got with no response so im going to call them and see what the schpeel is. Wish me luck.
ask for Gunnar when you call. He's the head guy at Patriot
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Just spoke with them, Aluminum head, which is different from the original iron block on ours if im not mistaken. Better? Worse? "stage one" is a mild P&P 3 angle valve job with OEM valvetrain for $745 shipped, "stage two" same work with +1 mm valves and everything else for $840. Bare head would be $600 shipped, but would myself buying stock valve train replacements be cheaper? Or even wise, since they match it all up nice and well i assume. Also, should i decide to go with the assembled head, is a +1 mm valve worth $100? I honestly have no idea.
Shoot me an email. I'll call Gunnar tomorrow and get you a better price
I'm good like that. LOL.
IMO the 1MM oversized valves and their valvetrain parts are worth the money...but that's just my opinion.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
