Hey guys,
OK ive done some searching for this and all that I could come up with is either semi tuning it w/ a SAFC-II or getting the N/A megasquirt. Well here is my situation, I just got my Eco and bye the end of this summer it will be up to the same par as the Z was parts wise and by next summer it should have a P&P and a valve job w/ the JBP stage 1 cams. I Figure id go w/ these because their mild enough to not throw any codes and not effect my gas mileage too much.
Well seeing that computer tuning is the worst part about tuning any Jbody 96+ I was wondering if just getting the computer re-flash they use for the S/C cars would do any good. To be honest im am afraid of the megasquirt and tuning my car on my own and the SAFC-II wouldnt be too bad. Basically is there anyway I can get the computer tuned or a piggyback or what not for what im looking for, kinda like a Hondata for the jbody...i know this may seem like a newb question but im serious...im not looking ot make an extremely fast eco, mid 14's N/A is fine w/ me w/ all bolt on's P&P and cams. anyway any help would be great. TIA
Anthony
SAFC-II seems like a good choice for N/A, but it does of course have its limitations and flaws. LOL I f**king hate our computers too
! Jbodyperformance.com DOES offer an OBD-II computer reflash for us though. Supposedly they can do MOSTLY anything you would need to have done (within reason, or course). I would do a search in this forum for the JBP reflash, read all the posts, then make your own decisions. There are pros and cons to their reflash, as you will find out. However, good luck finding any decent piggy-backs that will do anything other than suck.
Don't flame me guys, I'm neither for NOR against this reflash (just covering my ass here folks, becuase I know some folks are touchy about this reflash and it's worth).
if you're 2003, then you MAY not have the same computer issues as the later 2004-2005 ecos have (the lack of an open-loop map for full throttle operation). A pretty cheap way to tell this is to get one of the cheap A/F gauges, piggyback it off of your O2 sensor wiring, and then take a ride and punch it. If it goes solid green and stays there at WOT (anything less and it will sweep from red to green.... sorry if i'm dumbing this down too much but whenever i post i make sure anyone can understand regardless of knowledge level) then you are ok, and piggyback computer systems will work.... if it continues to sweep side to side, even at WOT.... then you're f---ed, and megasquirt is really your ONLY option.
I'd personally recommend an Emanage over an SAFC... you can add fuel based on load/rpm/tps/map for more accurate fueling, and also adjust ignition timing, which alone, even on a stock motor, will increase power (run premium dammit). One thing to note is that the wiring diagram on NYJbodies leaves out the additional injection ground wire... its a black wire in the additional injection harness that MUST be grounded to the body or negative battery terminal for the additional injection feature to work.
A lot of people have had problems with the Emanage on boosted setups running injctors that were significantly bigger than stock but I'm confident that an N/A setup on stock injectors and maybe just slightly increased fuel pressure would fare much better.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
I still think the Megasquirt is the best option.
No silly little display like the SAFC.
Full PC based tuning, grab a passenger and a laptop and go around adjusting stuff. Or you can build their little display for tuning.
Live time data, and real time tuning.
You build it yourself for much cheaper than you can buy a good one.
It's open source so you have a larger supporting community than with any other unit on the market!
I'll be tuning with a Megasquirt once my current to-do list is done.
-Chris
I don't mean to thread jack, but why does the 03-05 computer suck. I know absolutely nothing of it. Like what an open loop is....no idea. Is there a website that tells all?
alright, up until recently, a fuel injected ecu basically had two modes: open and closed loop.... in open loop, the car runs off a preset fuel map, and does not use the O2 sensor for a/f ratio correction.... In closed loop, the ecu closely monitors the O2 sensor feedback to try and keep 14.7:1 a/f ratio. Basically, for emission purposes, during part throttle driving (crusing/idling [after warmup]) the computer stays in closed loop because 14.7:1 is best for emissions. At WOT, the ecu would enter "open loop mode" which would cause it to run richer.... in open loop, you can add/remove fuel without the ecu adapting your changes back out.
This is why on the 2200/2.4, the FMU/injector/afpr setups work for boost. On the 03.5+ eco's, there IS NOT an open loop function.... the computer wants 14.7:1 ALL THE TIME, even WOT. Add fuel, and the computer will see its running richer than 14.7:1 and pull injector pulsewidth (on-time) to compensate. Under boost, this a/f ratio is catastrophic.... under nitrous too actually... All motor it results in a huge loss of power.
Look up things like fuel injection on howstuffworks.com for a nifty animated/ppictorial explanation too.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
so here's another question. Okay i have a base 04 is there a way to swap the ECU out with a base 03 with the 2 maps? or am i missing something?
~Riki
SPONSORED BY: No one!
Car Domain Site
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:alright, up until recently, a fuel injected ecu basically had two modes: open and closed loop.... in open loop, the car runs off a preset fuel map, and does not use the O2 sensor for a/f ratio correction.... In closed loop, the ecu closely monitors the O2 sensor feedback to try and keep 14.7:1 a/f ratio. Basically, for emission purposes, during part throttle driving (crusing/idling [after warmup]) the computer stays in closed loop because 14.7:1 is best for emissions. At WOT, the ecu would enter "open loop mode" which would cause it to run richer.... in open loop, you can add/remove fuel without the ecu adapting your changes back out.
This is why on the 2200/2.4, the FMU/injector/afpr setups work for boost. On the 03.5+ eco's, there IS NOT an open loop function.... the computer wants 14.7:1 ALL THE TIME, even WOT. Add fuel, and the computer will see its running richer than 14.7:1 and pull injector pulsewidth (on-time) to compensate. Under boost, this a/f ratio is catastrophic.... under nitrous too actually... All motor it results in a huge loss of power.
Look up things like fuel injection on howstuffworks.com for a nifty animated/ppictorial explanation too.
very well said.. a question you newer eco guys.. does it run in open loop during warmup? if so maybe a low temp therm will keep it there. might be better for tuning. not sure if this will throw a code, but hey just a thought. prolly already done. might be good to get a couple dif temps and watch your gauge to see if one works.
Sven you totally quarterloafed your computer..
Sounds like a good setup but my suggestion is when you get a P & P head job, stick with a 3 angle, don't get a 5 angle unless you plan on getting a bigger profile camshafts.
If anything, I agree with Scarab, go with the E-mange over the SAFC. The timing feature why I say that. Have it tuned either with a wideband or take it to a dyno.
Good luck.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
thanks for all the help guys
Riki Knight wrote:so here's another question. Okay i have a base 04 is there a way to swap the ECU out with a base 03 with the 2 maps? or am i missing something?
Actually, it does appear that this is possible. PJ (DaFlyinSkwirl) is wrapping up his ohv-->eco swap, and his 02 car does run off of the 03 ecu with no problems using the original 02 BCM. However, I can't guarantee with 100% certainty that there could be compatability issues with putting an older ecu with a new bcm (they could have changed programming or features). I'd say with 90% certainty that you can do this, but I cannot guarantee it. Fortunately, you can most likely find a ecu in the junkyards for pretty cheap.
The only issue I can definitely foresee is that there will be some kind of issue at inspection when the VIN in the ecu doesn't match the one of the car.... you can probably have a GM dealer put in the correct VIN but be sure that they do not reflash the ecu to a current flash as it may put you back in the same boat with only 14.7:1 a/f ratio.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
so im going to go ahead and assume that if i get the re-flash for a gm s/c car thru gm it will do nothing for my N/A car?
anton2586 wrote:so im going to go ahead and assume that if i get the re-flash for a gm s/c car thru gm it will do nothing for my N/A car?
It will probably just make you run richer...
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
anton2586 wrote:so im going to go ahead and assume that if i get the re-flash for a gm s/c car thru gm it will do nothing for my N/A car?
for boost, it will most likely retard timing, which is exactly the opposite of what you want. Since it adds fuel based on input from a 2 bar map sensor, it shouldn't make you run rich since the map sensor will never see boost... but the timing and fuel curves will be completely wrong for an n/a car nonetheless....
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
so there isnt a pre-set ecu then, anyway isnt the emanage up close to the 1000 dollar mark? anyother way to get it tuned...im not really looking for a perfect tune just something better than what it would be.
anton2586 wrote:so there isnt a pre-set ecu then, anyway isnt the emanage up close to the 1000 dollar mark? anyother way to get it tuned...im not really looking for a perfect tune just something better than what it would be.
Its actually in the $300-400 area and you just use a laptop to tune.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
ahhh i got the emange mixed up w/ aem's unit...thanks a lot njhk
anton2586 wrote:ahhh i got the emange mixed up w/ aem's unit...thanks a lot njhk
No problem
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
so to kill the rumors. does the Emange work on the closed loop ECU? for example could i tune everything that emange will let me with my 04?
~Riki
SPONSORED BY: No one!
Car Domain Site
Riki Knight wrote:so to kill the rumors. does the Emange work on the closed loop ECU? for example could i tune everything that emange will let me with my 04?
My friend (and Scarabs friend as well) used the E-manage on his 04 while he was N/A...so I'm assuming it worked fine.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
dario wrote:Sorry to jack the thread, but will the Emange give my N/A the full potential it can put out? If not, how much will it improve?
If you have basic bolt ons and/or mild motor work, an E-manage is good enough. You wouldn't be asking for an tremendous amount of fuel like you would be when you're boosted so the E-manage isn't going to fight much for more fuel...heck, there is a chance you might need less fuel which the e-manage can help with.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
Riki Knight wrote:so to kill the rumors. does the Emange work on the closed loop ECU? for example could i tune everything that emange will let me with my 04?
the timing adjustment map will work. fuel will do nothing. Add more fuel, the stock ecu will pull it out, no matter what you do. We were running an 04 ecotec under 5 psi of boost on a t3 60 trim, with 440 cc injectors, an adj. fpr, and an fmu. Even at 100 PSI fuel pressure at peak boost, the ecu would STILL pull out fuel to get to 14.7:1. For the record, 100 psi on 440's should be enough fuel for somewhere near 20 psi to still be 12:1. We hooked up the AutoTap diagnostic cable to the car and took it for a ride, and actually watched as the ECU started pulling out injector pulsewidth.... So no, Emanage won't be able to change your a/f ratio, even all motor, if you have an 04-05. Your only options are a full standalone (either megasquirt or a more expensive unit), or to try the ecu swap and run emanage.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
03, from the small survey i took a month or two ago, does not appear to have this problem.... that doesn't necessarily mean that you're scott-free, for proper tuning, you need a wideband regardless, so buy one, install it, and then see where the a/f ratio goes at WOT. If it goes richer than 14's, then you're in the clear.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
