I'm starting to think more and more that the real limiter on our engines as far as bolt-ons is the eco head. I'm always hearing how it doesn't flow for @!#$. So my guess is the first mod you'd want to do besides intake-header-exhaust is the p&p for the head. But then you might have a problem with the powerband being to high up and hitting the rev limiter before the power drops off, so you have to take care of that too and upgrade the head valves, springs and stuff like that AND the ecu to raise that limiter (never seen it done though except on gm's race car).
So that's why I think unless you want to put as much money as you would in a cheap turbo kit, doing bolt-ons on our cars is pretty much useless, with piss poor gains, unless you're happy with 20 hp over stock.
I'm not dogging the eco here...@!#$ it can hold 300 whp on boost with the stock bottom end as we've seem from many members on here.
15.574 @ 89 mph stock
Its not the head. Its the fact that bolt ons are not a major performance upgrade. You really don't get 20hp from an intake, 25 from an exhaust, 15 from a tb spacer, etc. There simply isn't a lot of power to be had from bolt ons. And thats not just true for the eco's, its the same with the 2.2's and 2.4's.
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well I guess I meant for Js in general too, but since I know the ecotec more...
Look at the k20a2 in the rsx-s, this engine does get lots of gains from bolt-ons. Sure there's VVT that helps it, but I'm guessing the head flows really well too and that must help a bunch. I've seen a 14.0 on the 1/4 from an rsx-s with mild bolt-ons and I'm pretty sure it was chipped. that's almost a second from what they do stock. I guess then that I would have thange my statement.
My real opinion is that the lack of a good flowing head AND tunability of our Js make the bolt-ons route simply useless IF you're wanting to make more than 15-20 whp more than stock because the money it takes could afford a turbo kit which makes 100 whp more than stock.
Agree disagree ?
15.574 @ 89 mph stock
To me it's different with every car. For instance, my car responded very well to bolt-ons. The difference is night and day. I'm totally pleased with my results.
DanteMustDie wrote:well I guess I meant for Js in general too, but since I know the ecotec more...
Look at the k20a2 in the rsx-s, this engine does get lots of gains from bolt-ons. Sure there's VVT that helps it, but I'm guessing the head flows really well too and that must help a bunch. I've seen a 14.0 on the 1/4 from an rsx-s with mild bolt-ons and I'm pretty sure it was chipped. that's almost a second from what they do stock. I guess then that I would have thange my statement.
My real opinion is that the lack of a good flowing head AND tunability of our Js make the bolt-ons route simply useless IF you're wanting to make more than 15-20 whp more than stock because the money it takes could afford a turbo kit which makes 100 whp more than stock.
Agree disagree ?
In my opinion, I think your anger is missplaced...
For the most part, most 4 cylinders stock are either very restrictive or semi restrictive to a point but in this case, your bolt ons aren't reaching your expectation because of your computer most likely. Those other cars, I bet their computers detect more airflow and supply the little fuel to comphensate for a better a/f ratio...I know your 2004 computer doesn't budge from it's a/f ratio.
If there was a way to get around your computer like a standalone or for instance the HP tuners device, they would be your best way of getting better performance.
Now to go to back to what shifted said...you only have bolt ons. They aren't going to do much. To get "real" gains, you need either boost or high compression and a way to get around or trick your computer.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
I don't know mine isn't so bad. But I did do a mild P&P so maybe it did help me out more then I'm thinking it did. I have the INJEN intake and Pacesetter header and a
2 1/2 inch exhaust and a P&P head and I ran a best of 14.89. What problems are you haveing ?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
NJHK (The JBO Negro) wrote:DanteMustDie wrote:well I guess I meant for Js in general too, but since I know the ecotec more...
Look at the k20a2 in the rsx-s, this engine does get lots of gains from bolt-ons. Sure there's VVT that helps it, but I'm guessing the head flows really well too and that must help a bunch. I've seen a 14.0 on the 1/4 from an rsx-s with mild bolt-ons and I'm pretty sure it was chipped. that's almost a second from what they do stock. I guess then that I would have thange my statement.
My real opinion is that the lack of a good flowing head AND tunability of our Js make the bolt-ons route simply useless IF you're wanting to make more than 15-20 whp more than stock because the money it takes could afford a turbo kit which makes 100 whp more than stock.
Agree disagree ?
In my opinion, I think your anger is missplaced...
For the most part, most 4 cylinders stock are either very restrictive or semi restrictive to a point but in this case, your bolt ons aren't reaching your expectation because of your computer most likely. Those other cars, I bet their computers detect more airflow and supply the little fuel to comphensate for a better a/f ratio...I know your 2004 computer doesn't budge from it's a/f ratio.
If there was a way to get around your computer like a standalone or for instance the HP tuners device, they would be your best way of getting better performance.
Now to go to back to what shifted said...you only have bolt ons. They aren't going to do much. To get "real" gains, you need either boost or high compression and a way to get around or trick your computer.
what anger are you talking about ? oh and I don't have bolt-ons... for the very reason I stated. This thread was only to get your opinions on the subject.
I decided to go for boost when I realized bolt-ons wouldn't take me where i wanted by looking at other members cars.
15.574 @ 89 mph stock
Jackalope wrote:I don't know mine isn't so bad. But I did do a mild P&P so maybe it did help me out more then I'm thinking it did. I have the INJEN intake and Pacesetter header and a
2 1/2 inch exhaust and a P&P head and I ran a best of 14.89. What problems are you haveing ?
no problems at all man... just trying to start a discussion. Maybe I should have named the thread "n/a mods plain suck on the ecotec ?"
15.574 @ 89 mph stock
i've never seen a k20 get any more hp out of i/h/e than any Jbody has, the difference is when they have those things and Hondata, and can actually TUNE their ecu. Without the ability to advance timing and tweak fuel curves, you're not going to get very much out of simple bolt ons.
So basically, keep emailing Shifted until he finally gets his OBD project finished
because unless hptuners decides to come through, he's probably you're only hope outside of a full standalone.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
DanteMustDie wrote:NJHK (The JBO Negro) wrote:DanteMustDie wrote:well I guess I meant for Js in general too, but since I know the ecotec more...
Look at the k20a2 in the rsx-s, this engine does get lots of gains from bolt-ons. Sure there's VVT that helps it, but I'm guessing the head flows really well too and that must help a bunch. I've seen a 14.0 on the 1/4 from an rsx-s with mild bolt-ons and I'm pretty sure it was chipped. that's almost a second from what they do stock. I guess then that I would have thange my statement.
My real opinion is that the lack of a good flowing head AND tunability of our Js make the bolt-ons route simply useless IF you're wanting to make more than 15-20 whp more than stock because the money it takes could afford a turbo kit which makes 100 whp more than stock.
Agree disagree ?
In my opinion, I think your anger is missplaced...
For the most part, most 4 cylinders stock are either very restrictive or semi restrictive to a point but in this case, your bolt ons aren't reaching your expectation because of your computer most likely. Those other cars, I bet their computers detect more airflow and supply the little fuel to comphensate for a better a/f ratio...I know your 2004 computer doesn't budge from it's a/f ratio.
If there was a way to get around your computer like a standalone or for instance the HP tuners device, they would be your best way of getting better performance.
Now to go to back to what shifted said...you only have bolt ons. They aren't going to do much. To get "real" gains, you need either boost or high compression and a way to get around or trick your computer.
what anger are you talking about ? oh and I don't have bolt-ons... for the very reason I stated. This thread was only to get your opinions on the subject.
I decided to go for boost when I realized bolt-ons wouldn't take me where i wanted by looking at other members cars.
Anger was the wrong word...maybe I should have said "worries".
I didn't read your profile before hand to know you don't have any bolt ons.
Bolt ons on most 4 cylinders won't take you far at all, so if you really though doing bolt ons was going to take you far, you were mistaken.
As far as what you're hearing about the heads not flowing, I think you're hearing from people who haven't touched their cylinder head for an before and after effect. Of course, I would be assuming...
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
I've got header, intake and exhaust.
All done for $600.00 and I'm very happy with the result and didn't spend near half of what I would need to spend for a decent turbo.
I've also been extremely impressed with the results of my mods. I can't give you a strip time because I don't drag race, just autocross.
20hp is pretty good for not having to do any major work.
Where are you located at? I'd be willing to let you try out my car so you could get the comparison from stock to a car with some decent boltons.
I feel that my car has more than enough power for my current applications. However if your goal is huge gains, than your only real option is going to be a turbo.
-Chris
guys guys...
you keep extrapolating... I never said i wanted to make good power with bolt-ons... I simply wanted to discuss about the potential of bolt-ons on our cars which is completely unrelated to MY car or the kind of gains I want. I'll say it one last time, I am going the way of boost pretty soon... and have not thought of getting only bolt-ons since early last year... so please keep the discussion on the main subject.
scarab: you bring a valid point... the hondata is probably the reason why they can get so much potential with little mods... something which is missing for our cars. Our engine probably has a lot of potential once something like that comes out but until then I think it's a waste of time to go n/a if you have big goals.
njhk: I was talking about the stock head which doesn't flow much. I heard it in the 'saab setup' thread when I learned that we use small turbos because our heads don't flow much and so can't spool a big turbo as well as a good flowing head. Of course, an aftermarket head like yours probably has great potential once tuned and supported properly. So to recap. stock head doesn't flow well.
IamRascal: thanks for the offer but I am in Quebec, so I'll pass on that trip. I'm happy that you're happy with your mods
15.574 @ 89 mph stock
DanteMustDie wrote:well I guess I meant for Js in general too, but since I know the ecotec more...
Look at the k20a2 in the rsx-s, this engine does get lots of gains from bolt-ons. Sure there's VVT that helps it, but I'm guessing the head flows really well too and that must help a bunch. I've seen a 14.0 on the 1/4 from an rsx-s with mild bolt-ons and I'm pretty sure it was chipped. that's almost a second from what they do stock. I guess then that I would have thange my statement.
My real opinion is that the lack of a good flowing head AND tunability of our Js make the bolt-ons route simply useless IF you're wanting to make more than 15-20 whp more than stock because the money it takes could afford a turbo kit which makes 100 whp more than stock.
Agree disagree ?
There's no VVT in the honda / acura's. IT'S VTEC YO!
VTEC is a form of VVT smartass
15.574 @ 89 mph stock
Well an RSX-S might get a few extra hp out of bolt ons, only becuase the stock horsepower is more. But the more horsepower your car has, the more gains it will get out of certain mods rather then a lower horsepower car. Add a CAI on a Civic Ex and on a Civic R. Which will benefit more? Of course the type R. But the more horsepower your car has, does mean it's better built for power and speed, so to come back to your point, Eco's don't really have a stock engine built for a high top end (to agree to your thread) in my opinion. Sure we have a lot of torque for a cheap stock I-4, but out high-end is not among the best. I think our cars will do well on a 1/4, but not as good for highway racing.
But I do got to admit, I am very happy with my bolt-ons and I'm pleased with how my car runs. I beat a lot cars I shouldn't have, but all off the line. Haven't raced much from a roll except random cars and only did mediocre.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2208703
It seems like these RSX-S respond well because they can rev higher, which is more critical for engine breathing and why they make the power with bolt ons. But what do i know.
I have the RKSport short ram, and they claimed around a 5 horsepower gain, I felt more of an improvement when I knocked out my cat, which was a pia I might add. And before I catch crap about it, I live in an area where there are no emissions, so I can get away with it, for now
Some times the best way to get that tailgater off your but is to light a fart.
Fauqeir County, Virginia, nothing but farms and wide open spaces.
Some times the best way to get that tailgater off your but is to light a fart.
plus, none of the rednecks will suport emissions laws, including me
Some times the best way to get that tailgater off your but is to light a fart.
I had my Honda equipped with a Hondata tuned ECU. I had a stock H22 swapped in, a custom short ram intake, header, and a custom 2.5" exhaust. This was all in a '93 Civic hatch back. The engine makes over 200 HP every day with next to no mods at all. Yes, VTEC helps in the case of a Honda, but the ECU tuning is where it's at. That's why if you really want a J-body to really perform, regardless of the engine, you need to either get the ECU reprogrammed, or use a stand alone like Megasquirt or AEM.
Be kind to dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
It depends. I've never done it with a Chevy so I honestly don't know. In my experience with Hondas, it's not uncommon to see engines ranging from the B16 to the H22 to see gains of 15 or 20 HP just from retuning the ECU. As far as what types of gain, nobody will know until someone actually does it. I'm sure someone here has used a stand alone, but most don't upgrade the ECU until they have major mods like turbos and such. It would be interesting to see how a stock motor would react. I know that there are a few places where you can get the stock ECU reprogrammed, but it's not flexible like a stand alone. If you send it in, get it tuned for the mods you have, that's it. If you change anything, you have to have the ECU retuned again. My Honda has the same disadvantage. With a stand alone, all you need is a laptop and you can tune the car on the fly. If it's too rich or too lean, timing needs advanced or retarded, it's all at your finger tips.
Be kind to dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
like theyve all said its not the engine at all its all in the computer running it GM themselves got 168 bhp by using the AEM management system with no other mods so they say and ill say all my mods are bolt ons but with everything in my reg i kept right with an RSX-S from a roll with my automatic so id say the $1500 ive put into my car to date in performance mods has by far payed off i couldnt imagine it if i could retune the computer to like all the mods and make them work better together
overtall to stick with what your asking i personally think an N/A build up would be a good turn out with higher compression and ECU tunability aka standalone, and personally a great challenge and alot of fun in the process. getting to the progression after each new mod you do and the fun of retuning it each time.i will say though that boost is NOT the only option for big power gains with this engine just the easiest and yes cheaper and more ECU friendly
The one, the only, ME.
Its all in what the motors are made to do.
They are made to have good fuel economy and are programmed that way.
You try to increase the perfromance and the computer is trying to counter act that by changing injector pulses, timing, etc.
An economical stand alone alternative is the megasquirt in my opinion. It is still a piggy-back not a true stand alone but gives you a wide of tuneability at a budget price.
The downside is you can really screw things up with it if you dont know a lot about what you are doing.
Another thing is most engines are very close to the limit of thier performance potential when they come out of the factory. They will do what they were designed to do and not much more. This is another reason major gains can not be seen by simply bolting on some slightly better parts regardless of what you start out with.
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