Things finally worked out and I was able to spend some time at the machine shop tonight. Here's where I'm at.
1) The top feed conversion for 92-97 intakes looks very easy. I think the trick was visiting a friend who thinks like I do, rather than a production machinist who may be much more ridgid about the "right" way to solve a problem. The total machining time for this first manifold should be under 3 hours not including modifying the 98+ fuel rail.
2) Valve guides for the 92 - 97 heads have the same OD and length, whether or not the valves are 7 or 8 mm. Although OE type iron guides are available, I chose not to use GM's route (ream the stock guides and install bronze liners). Instead I'll be buying (4) 7mm broze guides for the exhaust side and (4) 8mm bronze guides for the intake side. The intake guides will be opened up to accept 11/32" stem, 1.840" intake valves which will need a .070" lash cap on top to restore valve height to original.
3) Valves/ retainers/springs took a little thought. I'm not looking for a 400hp, 8000 rpm screamer, only something that will run a little over my current shift rpm of about 6200. I'll probably choose a set of 1.26" OD springs which provide 110# pressure at an installed height of 1.80" while keeping nose pressure at about 315# at .460" lift. The intake springs will work with a stock smallblock chebby retainer while the exhaust retainer requires a dose of Yankee ingenuity applied to German engineering.
4) I'm likely to do some mild pocket porting and bowl work and I'm strongly considering applying ceramic coatingsto the head and intake, but it will be a while before I'm at that point.
5) I have an interesting idea for some cheap rockers which I'll be exploring during this game.
-->Slow
sweet......keep it up. and i want to see pics of the top feed conversion.
Jeff
sweetness dude. post pics
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
Those 1.840" intakes will work great on a boosted motor, good idea! Are you going to use the 1mm oversized exhaust valves? I think that would be good to help expell the exhaust.
The valve springs sound allot like the Crane H-11 tool steel springs. They are good strong springs, but keep an eye on them, I've heard they have a tendancy to loose free length over time. We've used a set on our Street Stock race car for three years with no problems, turning thet motor to 7200rpm with a 0.500" lift cam.
The thermal coating would work great on the chambers, after polishing, and on the piston tops. This would be great for reatining the heat in the combustion chambers. Also, look into coating the piston skirts with an anti-friction coating.
On another note, I'm still looking for the dimensions on the "91(?) and older Valve spring retainers (GM part # 10045007). These are the retainers used on the older straight valve springs, not the newer tappered springs.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Expell the heat...... 1mm oversized Exhaust if forced induction is going on will be great for spooling that turbo ................ FORCE IT IN, FORCE IT OUT, FORCE IT IN, FORCE IT OUT !!
Woot
Lee
JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...
Source for 1mm OS exhaust valve? Current plan includes compensating for slightly smaller valve with improved exhaust port, manifold, and... hmmm... less restrictive turbine than what's currently installed.
Interesting note on the springs. These are not Crane branded parts, although construction may be similar. They're listed for max lift of .550 IIRC. I'll have to watch them like everything else, I guess.
If I apply coatings I will include DFL on the piston skirts and valve springs. The DFL coatings are easier to apply than the ceramic heat barrier so there's no reason not to.
Sorry, still no dimensions for you. I looked for an older head assembly before starting this, but my friend with the junkyard had just finished crushing and there's almost nothing left there.
Yesterday I was able to debunk a myth by determining that the roller fulcrum rocker used in the 96+ 3100 is about 1.53:1 ratio instead of 1.6. Before hitting the archives, has anyone confirmed the 2200 rocker is or is not 1.6 ratio?
Tx
-->Slow
that stuff will all go well with a larger exhaust valve....... regardless of whether or not you have a longer duration ......... if you do you might aswell get the 1mm oversized e/v..... because when you machine the head you gotta redo those valve seats..... just machine 1mm oversized ones in and forget it...... come on .... DO IT ...... come on.....
hahah
Lee
JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...
Karo @ Car Customs has the kit with both the intake and exhaust valves, you may have to buy the kit or he might sell you just the exhaust valves. Give Karo a call or e-mail him, he should be able to help you.
You shouldn't have any problems with the springs, since they're rated for .550" lift and you're only going to .460". Like I said, our motor ran three years with no problems.
Event will remember who did the testing on the 2200's roller rockers. Don't have time to do the search, gota go Christmas shopping!
Karo's valves are a convenient way to buy a nice set of undercut stem, oversize head replacements. 1mm OS exhaust valves are approximately 1.49" dia up from the stock 1.45" dia. Since I'm already replacing 8 guides, and since I've already decided to open up 4 guides to 11/32" to accomodate 1.85" smallblock intake valves, it's barely any more work to replace the factory exhaust valve with a 1.50" smallblock exhaust valve. Choosing this valve over the factory part adds about 35 grams for the spring to handle, but I really don't expect a problem as this is the valve the spring is initially designed for. There is some valve shrouding which occurs at low lift, not an optimum situation. But the canted valve centerline causes the valve head to quickly move away from the chamber wall and it looks like the overall flow gain will be good. I'll be using every last bit of the factory exhaust valve seat but at least I won't have to replace them.
The head has been pressure checked and passed with flying colors. The intake seats have been removed and the chamber has been opened up for the new seats without breaking into the water jacket (a big plus).
With the selection of new and good used valves that I have, the valve swap should cost less than $100.
On another note, we finished making pilots for the intake manifold. The pilots fit into the original injector bores and will allow us to level the manifold quickly and easily. Boring out the fuel rail/ injector ports should take less time than cutting 8 valve seats.
-->Slow
Holy crap! I just went out and checked 1.50" exhaust valves, and there's definately no clearence/shrouding problems, but 1.85" intake valves go right up to the combustion chamber wall!!! And you said my 1.58" exhaust valve idea was pushing it...almost the same thing!
Anyway, I understand you're changing to a 1.800" installed spring height, which shouldn't be too hard with the longer SBC valve stems. But, since our pushrods sit at an angle, how do you go about changing that angle and pushrod length to keep proper rocker geometry? I'm assuming you would probably want some custom pushrod guides now, how do you determine exactly what you need? I'm going to assume there's enough lee-way in the pushrod ports in the head that this little change in geometry won't be enough to have to bore them out?
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
the angle of the push rods, rocker or valve won't change, only the hight will change. Custom pushrods are a must though. I do see a problem with the rocker cover though, both the hight of the new valve train and the angle that the valve train sits will interfere with the breather baffles. Sounds like he'll need both a VC spacer and do some grinding to the baffles.
I wanted to get some #'s together before replying to this but I'm in the middle of upgrading my computer here. I've got drives disconnected, parts all over the place, and books and cd's in every corner imaginable.
IIRC the height of both the stock 2.2 and the smallblock valve weren't all that different. The spring seat needs to be lowered a fair amount to achieve the desired installed height. But increasing the height of the valve only means increasing pushrod and rocker stud length. The switch to 1.6 rockers may mean the pushrod guideplates need to be adjusted slightly which I'll check as some of this comes together. Of course the amount of change will dictate the method used. A valve cover spacer is part of the plan already since I haven't been able to locate one of the magnesium tall covers from the 2.0 buildup article.
The intake valve seat is being replaced and the seat cutter will take care of any interference caused by the chamber wall with respect to valve shrouding.
I never said that you couldn't run the 1.58" exhaust valves. I only said you'd be pushing it. I figured you liked the challenge.
-->Slow
From what I've seen on my quick google search, stock SBC valves are a little under 5", whereas my 2.2L valves measured out to 5.463" intake and 5.133" exhaust. You'd have to cut the spring seats down even more to use the SBC valves, but then you also may not have to worry about rocker clearance...How much do you think can be safely removed from the seats before hitting a water jacket or something?
Also, when I was talking about the geometry, I was referring to using ~.1" longer valves without shaving the spring seats down...I know the pushrod would obviously have to be longer, but wouldn't it end up sitting at a different angle (more vertical) due to the new contact being higher (ex. 92* at lifter compared to 90* originally...)?
Also, I'd bet PJ/Scarab would have some 2200 springs laying around for testing...
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
lol pj's head has the dreaded jbp springs... we haven't gotten the damn thing apart yet, its in a wheelbarrow in my garage.... i'm kinda starting to think with the high failure rate of jbp's springs that may actually have been the problem with the skwirls engine... but we'll see once the skwirl is running on eco power, and out of my garage so i can clean up and start tearing down the old engine.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
I hope this isn't too off topic, but has anyone had any lucky with JBP's hi-revolution lifters? I haven't heard anything about them, and was hoping they'd be a good upgrade for next year.
slowolej, the mod for the guide plate is simply grinding about 1/8" from the edge closest to the stud. This is done because the push rod seat is closer to the rocker trunion.
Ya know, I feel kind of silly. Right there in the first post... my post... I wrote
Quote:
The intake guides will be opened up to accept 11/32" stem, 1.840" intake valves which will need a .070" lash cap on top to restore valve height to original.
Yep, we came up with a .070" difference in valve height. We're also looking at using stock retainers, which means the spring pocket depth will be adjusted until it's correct or until we hit water. Neither my friend or I saw anything that looked scary with the planned setup, but I can't quote any of the numbers we worked out as they're written on a notepad which stays with the parts at the machine shop. The head is expendable. It's a freebie removed from a car heading to the junkyard. I can get more if I need to switch to "plan B."
Thanks for saving me some assembly time Madjack. I've installed plenty of larger rockers in smallblock heads. Why, just today I installed 1.6 rockers on new Vortec heads which I'd previously modified by enlarging the pushrod guide hole. I don't currently have an assembled 2.2 (other than the one in the car) to check the pushrod to guide clearance so I couldn't say yay or nay on that one.
I'll try to remember to copy my notes from the shop. And I'll see if I can get some batteries for the digital camera.
-->Slow
Ok, this is moving again. This time I have a bit more money available, so we've done things a little differently than I'd planned above. Orignally we were talking about using a SBC valve, playing games with some custom length pushrods which were hanging around the shop, cutting the beejeezus out of the spring seats, and getting downright nasty with the head. My friend at the shop is a helluva guy and he loves a good adventure as much as I do. But as I sat looking over my notes early last week I decided that he and I have enough to do without getting buried in trying to save a few bucks, especially when the bucks aren't such an endangered species right now.
At this time I'm holding a set of 4 exhaust valves from a big block Chevy. 1.880" diameter head, 11/32 dia stem, +.100" long for a total overall length of 5.145." The outer diameter of the head will be turned (slowly and patiently) on a lathe to a smaller diameter, most likely taking about .030" off the OD. Since we're going to have to open up the head for larger seats, the same cutting operation will deshroud the combustion chamber wall. These valves were cheap, part no 269213 at a cost of $50 shipped to my door from Competition Products in Wisconsin.
It's the exhaust valves that cost real money. Although the stock valves would likely have worked, I really wanted to use a larger diameter stem to give more surface area to spread side loading out slightly and increase overall life of the guide. The only valve I could find which fit the bill and matched or slightly exceeded the original valve height was a Manley Severe Duty exhaust valve for smallblock Chevy, 1.50" diameter head, 11/32" dia stem, and +.200" length for a total of 5.210" overall. The total for that order is probably going to be about $115, again through Competition Products. The valves are going to be drop shipped directly from Manley's facility in New Jersey and I hope they'll be in hand by Thursday next week.
-->Slow
'Scuse me for chimin' in like this, but Slow, I'm lookin' to put set of Crane 1.6s on my LN2. So pushrod clearance is of concern to me.
Lemme know if you ever learn if their holes ever egging-out. Plus, need I worry 'bout valve/piston clearance with these rockers on a
'94 with the factory stock cam's 0.259 lift a common standard replacement head gasket in use?
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
It's going to ba a bit before I get to the point where the head and block are test fit. Won't know about pushrod interference before that. AFAIK no piston clearance issues with 1.6 on '94 engine.
There are a couple of other good threads with more info. Try something like 1.7 rocker arm or ls1 rocker arm in the search engine.
-->Slow
I ran 1.6 on my 96 without clearance issues on the stock gasket, as have many others (Jack has an aftermarket cam as well), so no worries there.
Slow, the stock 7mm valves don't have guide wear issues, what are you doing to that poor motor that would require massive 11/32?
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Quote:
Slow, the stock 7mm valves don't have guide wear issues, what are you doing to that poor motor that would require massive 11/32?
valve OD > +1.00 mm and costs slightly less than 7mm valves. 11/32" spring retainers and locks already in my possesion and cost $0. Labor time for headwork at machine shop costs less than labor time at manufacturing facility. Hopefully total cash outlay will be lower going this route. And I just happen to be from the "some is good, more is better, too much must be just right" mindset.
Progress report: Bronze guides are now opened up to correct diameter. Next tuesday should see guides and seats installed. I'm currently looking for forged pistons for a reasonable price. I'm not excited about spending >$100 per piston.
-->Slow
Thanks Notec, for you help and understanding. Now if only I could also afford to regear the rear to take advantage of the low-end torque in terms of efficiency. I've already once averaged 24.5 day-to-day in my damn-near stock "94 automatic S-10 w/ factory 4.10 gears, how far can I go? And how close to a 30 mpg average can I realistically get? That something I'd like to see. And maybe, no more need for 93 octane because of the factory lack of knock sensor!
Go beyond the "bolt-on".
