this is my goal. preferably n/a. boost would be an option if i couldn't get there n/a reliably. my list:
Bottem end rebuild, including: knife edge and balance of crank. new rods, bearings, pistons.
Upgraded oil pump
P&P head with upgraded valvetrain
JBP stage 2 cams(for reliability) custom grind opt.
Already have Pacesetter 4-1 header and Magnaflow catback exh.
ECU upgrade
Inline fuel pump and injectors if necessary.
FPR if necessary
Now, i can't achieve this at the preset rpm limits of the stock ecu. so, i will need to up my rpm limit. hence the upgraded internals and valvetrain. the question is, can i get there with the stock 9.5:1 compression ratio on the 2.4l? my assumption is no. i would probably need 10.5:1 or higher. obviously i don't want to buy the pistons and then have to go boosted later to get 100hp/L. your thoughts and help is appreciated.
you can get there with the OEM ecu. no need to modify it. You just need to buy the right parts and build the engine well.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
opk your could save thousands and just spray it.... without a dought best bang for your buck by far
i have 100HP/L easily. of course i am boosted and that would only require 220HP...and i had that at 6PSI
@!#$...i could be nearing 150HP/L soon
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
i'm looking at somewhere near 125 hp / liter
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
Your car loses power as soon as you pass the red line there is no logical reason to change the limiter.....our cars arent like hondas there is no point to making your car capable of reving to 9000rpms also why would you go with high compression if you might boost it....lower compression is ideal for forced induction. There are no ecu upgrades other than stand alone or piggy back fuel systems . Your goal is not impossible karo has done it N/A but you will need to do alot more than what you are listing to get there. If you search you can see what Karo did to his car other than him not many if any others have done what he has N/A.
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Yes officer I knew the speed limit was 50
Quote:
you can get there with the OEM ecu. no need to modify it. You just need to buy the right parts and build the engine well.
how do i increase the rev limiter? and is the compression ratio a problem with the ecu?
Quote:
Your car loses power as soon as you pass the red line there is no logical reason to change the limiter.....our cars arent like hondas there is no point to making your car capable of reving to 9000rpms also why would you go with high compression if you might boost it....lower compression is ideal for forced induction.
the cams determine where the power is, not the ecu. that is why peple don't use the H.O. cams off the Quad 4. the power band changes comepletely. i am anticipating this so therefor i need the increase in rev limit. i would only boost if i can't do this reliably.
let us say that i go with 9.5:1 pistons and as mentioned upgrades. if i get 100hp/L reliably that way i won't go boosted. if 10.5:1+ gets me there then i won't go boosted. but if 10.5+ is too unreliable then i will go boosted @ 9.5:1 with as mentioned upgrades.
my hope is that i can get there with 9.5:1 and then when i need more power add boost. so, if anyone has formulas that can help me determine what compression ratio i would need, that would be great.
coldairintake wrote:Your car loses power as soon as you pass the red line there is no logical reason to change the limiter.....our cars arent like hondas there is no point to making your car capable of reving to 9000rpms also why would you go with high compression if you might boost it....lower compression is ideal for forced induction. There are no ecu upgrades other than stand alone or piggy back fuel systems . Your goal is not impossible karo has done it N/A but you will need to do alot more than what you are listing to get there. If you search you can see what Karo did to his car other than him not many if any others have done what he has N/A.
someone should really find a way to make ignorance hurt.....
HP is a function of torque and RPM.... the higher in the rpm band your torque is, the higher your peak hp is as well. He wasn't saying he was going to raise the rev limiter arbitrarily, but only after making modifications in order to make use of a higher rev limit. He also said the only reason he would boost it is if he could not attain his 100hp/liter goal. ANyway, back on point... An engine with more displacement will generally make more torque, depending on its efficiency level. Since hp is a function of torque, you need to either make more torque, or produce the same amount of torque at a higher rpm in order to gain more HP. Think of an engine as a boxer... you can have a Butterbean, who can easily knock a guy out with one punch, or you can have a featherweight who can land ten less powerful punches in the same time frame, and accomplish a knockout just the same. Same with an engine... SInce you can't make an engine bigger as its running (although a boosted setup simulates this), you can make each cylinder fire more often. That's why peak hp occurs at over 5000 rpm, and not at 1 rpm.
The only thing is that to get an engine to make use of higher RPM operation, is that you need to raise the torque peak, which is generally done through cam profile and timing. Then naturally the engine has to be able to breathe at that higher speed, in order to continue to produce that torque hence the p+p, and other misc. airflow mods.
Now, me personally, would be really worried about spinning a 2.4 to any higher rpm than stock unless you did some serious crank/oiling work or POOF! There goes that #3 bearing again...
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Darkstars wrote:opk your could save thousands and just spray it.... without a dought best bang for your buck by far
bottles are for babies
people who are to lazy to do something a little more difficult. but if you are doing something like a s/c or t/c and nitro i am all for it
n/a is def the koolest way to go
It's gonna take lots of skill and money to make 240 hp out of a 2.4 twin cam RELIABLY and without boost. I will be very impressed when i see those dyno graphs.
Does it go faster?
oldskool wrote:It's gonna take lots of skill and money to make 240 hp out of a 2.4 twin cam RELIABLY and without boost. I will be very impressed when i see those dyno graphs.
karo did it, wasnt really that expensive considering most here can shell out 800$ for fiberglass, 800$ for paint, a few grand on interioud audio etc....
i figure for the parts, around $3g. then around $600-$800 for a used engine. not sure on the cost to have the engine put together. installing the engine i can handle.
would i need the HP Tuners software that RoboGeek is working on or a stand alone?
Quote:
someone should really find a way to make ignorance hurt.....
....ignorance is the lack of understanding nothing I said was untrue and there is no need to be rude to people trying to aid a helping hand.....I was trying to point him in the right direction, people like you deserve bad things you think you are all mighty....I am merely trying to help a fellow org member and just to add just to let you know if you said somethign like that to my face i'd knock you out straight up.
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Yes officer I knew the speed limit was 50
coldairintake wrote:There are no ecu upgrades other than stand alone or piggy back fuel systems . Your goal is not impossible karo has done it N/A
Actually I did it N/A, not Karo. And the figure is 125/L.
For N/A....
knife edge crank = no
balance crank. rods, pistons = yes
New rods = should do it, won't last if not. but won't make more power.
New pistons = yes 10-10.5 to 1cr
Upgraded oil pump =definitely
P&P head = definitely
upgraded valvetrain = again not really necessary, but can't hurt
JBP stage 2 cams(for reliability) custom grind opt.= no idea about either
Already have Pacesetter 4-1 header = just OK
Magnaflow catback exh. = no cat would be nice
ECU upgrade = yes, redline would have to raised
Inline fuel pump = probably
injectors =definitely
FPR if necessary =
regulator could help.
Riser no.
Custom intake (manifold) and Throttle body
Turbo....
Nothing. Stock with 6-7 psi and fuel control will get you there.
sig not found
even if you have the OEM ecm, you can run 15:1 compression. It's not the ecm that "can't" take the compression, the problem is the timing. Shoot some alchool in it and forget about it, you could run 15:1 compression all day.
The 2.4 run at 9.5 and 9.7 :1 compression with 87 octane so you should be able to get away with 12:1 with 93 octane without any problem.
Why raise the limiter? you probably won't even have enough modification to be worth the assle of higer revolution. The OEM cut off is at 6500. Get a cam with .410" lift like the Ho but with 200° of duration. You'll stay in the same range but you'll have more power.
Let's make a "fast" calculation.
stock 2.4 have 150hp and you had those mods
P&P head - around 5hp
Header & exhaust - around 10hp
Ho intake manifold - around 10hp
2.3 oil pump - around 15hp
So now you already have 40 hp more witch mean 190hp. you need to find 50hp more and I was conservative on the Hp number.
So you had an aluminium flywheel, lighter crank pulley, forged(lighter) pistons and rods, cams and valves and you can get to 240. it also depend alot on the builder.
2 person can build the same engine with the same parts and one guy will make more power with his engine because it's better build.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
Thanks, Protomec. why not knife edge the crank? wouldn't that lighten up the rotating assembly and reduce wear at higher rpm's?
Knife edging the crank is a really low yield proposition.
1st, it doesn't really reduce weight. The counterweights are there to counteract the weight of the pistons and rods. Pretty much any weight you remove will likely have to be put back in by drilling and adding really expensive Mallory Metal back into the counterweights. So there is no gain there.
2nd,the real purpose of Knife edging is to reduce aerodynamic drag and oil windage. Neither of which will net much more than a horsepower or 2.
It is a large amount of work to do, for really no gain. In the end, just not worth the effort.
sig not found
thanks again. very informative.
Update:
I called around the local area her(so-cal) and to have the block work done = $700 and then to have the P&P + valve job is another $400. are these good prices or should i look around more? So-Cal people speek up if you know a good place with better prices. thanks in advance.
Hummm.. i am looking to build something similar with a friend for his car and here is what we learned for now !
remove balancer shafts + 15-18 HP
P&P + 10 HP
Headers and p-flow + 15HP
compression ratio to 12 :1 +20 HP (will work with 93 octane gas as 11:1 works well in a2200)
Sports Camshafts + 10HP
larger valves + 10hp
Total = 230HP
these figures are conservative and would probably make a reliable street engine (with proper mods to the internals that is)!! if you go for a full race port and polish + race camshafts w/adjustable gear and build a custom intake for beter flow and all with some kind of monstrous headers, you might get up to 300 HP at arround 8000+ RPM
I would'nt go beyond that tho !!
The prices you got there looks fair to me
P.S. definitely 12:1 C.R. ..... it works like a charm and gives awsome torque and power compared to all the other mods
go 14:1 if you can runn strictly on alchool !!!!
Too bad you just cant add those numbers together.
You cant add gains from each part...
for example intake = 8hp
exhaust = 7hp
You might get a 10hp gain overall
