I just had a Patriot Performance stage II head and their cams installed with GM's adj cam gears set at 1deg adv on intake and 2 deg retard on exh (that's what was suggested to me) on my '02 ecotec...the car wouldn't idle, so the guy who worked on it bumped the idle way up...the car just doesn't run right...It revs about 2000 until I come to a complete stop, the idle is crappy as hell especially when the A/C is on...it hesitates sometimes...not fun to drive right now...the power is improved but I definitely think there is more to be found...

I'm thinking I definitely need to do something with the fuel...what do you guys suggest? SAFC? AFPR? FMU? dyno tune? would putting it on a diagnostic comp help? I'm not very good when it comes to this stuff...any help would be appreciated...I also saw the Perfect Power SMT6 article in GMHTP where they tuned an Ion turbo kit...anybody have experience with this? I plan on getting the GM s/c kit when it comes out so I really don't want to get too crazy with engine management stuff until I have to after the supercharger gets put on...thanks


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2002 LS Sport coupe

just asking, but when you first put the cams in, were they degreed correctly?

also bumped the idle way up? via the TB? the computer? theres a few ways of doing it.

I think he just turned the screw on the TB...he had trouble timing the engine cuz my RK pulley didn't have a timing mark and noone put one on when it was installed...no prob there he had the head off and made a mark at TDC...he said the manual was telling him that to set the cam gears you just put the timing marks at 10:00 for intake and 2:00 for the exhaust at TDC but that seems pretty inaccurate to me...I dunno...the more I think about it I think its a timing issue...QBE is under the same impression...could it also be a fuel issue?...smells like gas every time I start it up....


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2002 LS Sport coupe

oh and the cams were pre-installed on the head by patriot



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2002 LS Sport coupe

Unless your running a serious race setup i'd say try setting it up with the cams straight up instead of advanced and retarded.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Motor probably needs more airflow, ie a WAI or CAI instead of the stock airbox, that and like said above, the advance and retard. Also make sure the motor is timed correctly, because if the ECOTEC is like my LD9, its an interference engine, and the valves could hit the pistons.

Hey Matt K, wish I saw this post earlier...

I have an ECOTEC with the Patriot Stage II head also (with JBP stage 1 cams). I think you have 2 problems:

1. Fuel is defenitley an issue. I highly suggest an SAFC-2. I have it on mine and it helped lots. It gave me my missing power but I still need to tune it more. I bet right now your running rich and your computer is dumping way too much fuel. Get an SAFC-2 on ebay or some place, have it installed and dyno tuned (initially). If you feel that you can do a better tuning, go ahead but atleast you'll know if you're Rich and what your A/F ratio is after taking it to the dyno.

2. I was interested in getting the GM cam gears also and did alot of research. I talked to one JBO member (can't remember his name), he said that he had them with a rebuilt motor and had it constantly tested and they found that the best timing was at stock settings...sad but true. Our timing stock is pretty much the best thing for us (at this stage of the game). Take it back and have them set it back.

I think with those 2 things, you'll have your issues solved. Good Luck.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

thanks for the suggestions...think I'm gonna get the timing set back to stock after I get it put on a dyno and a comp (when I can find the time)...keep the suggestions coming though, thanks


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2002 LS Sport coupe

btw....adam, what did you dyno at?


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2002 LS Sport coupe

Matt K wrote:btw....adam, what did you dyno at?

My dyno #s were before the head was installed. I was running rich even before the head and after my cams were installed...I bought them at 2 different times.

But these #s don't matter now cause I'm getting boost soon *crossing fingers*



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

my quess is improper install.... specially if they had a hard time timing it cause the RKSport pulley.... if they knew what they were doing that wouldn't have been in issue in anyway what-so-ever.

put the cam timing back to stock and see how it runs. how the hell are you supposed to diagnose whether its install or tuning issues if you did too much at one time. You should have installed everything first, set it to stock, and run it to see if everything was ok. Just cuz you "heard" those settings are optimal doesn't mean crap. I've also "heard" that a cherry bomb muffler will make you pick up 2mph in trap speed at the track, but thats a load of BS, so set the cam timing to stock and then see what happens. As it stands just with the cams alone you're going to have to play with fueling in order to get it to idle properly, because the computer may not be able to compensate for the additional airflow.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

the crank pulley/timing was not an issue...he put a timing mark on the pulley when the head was off and it was TDC...the placement of the cam gears is where the problem may be...the adj gears don't have all the timing marks that the stock gears do, so he lined the adj gears up based on where the marks on the stock gears were, then he adv/ret'd them...either he made a slight error with installing the adj gears properly, adjusted the gears wrong, or the computer won't accept the minor cam timing changes...that's where I'm at right now...anybody know anyone else whose had to tune the cams or adj cam gears on the eco??




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2002 LS Sport coupe

I'm still thinking improper install, even if the new gears don't have the orignal timing marks the keyway is in the same spot... meaning if you set the gears to 0* (no advance or retard) you can line up the keyway on the new gear and the keyway on the old gear and new gear then mark the tooth of the new gear that lines up with the marked tooth on the stock gear. Its very simple and I would really dought the quality of work form a shop that couldn't figure that out and had a hard time geting it right (if it is right) because the symptoms you mentioned sounds like mistimed cam or cams

i agree id take it all apart again and time to stock and you should be good

problem solved...for now.

I tore my valve (cam) cover off this weekend and discovered the problem. The fukchead who installed the stuff didn't properly tighten the adjusting bolts on the cam gears and my intake cam gear slipped so that the slash was all the way to the right (I think that means 8 deg ret, not sure), anyway I set the gears to 0 and tightened the bolts tighter and, after readjusting the idle, my car is actually drivable again. I'm surprised the engine even ran with the timing that off!

The GM sport compact build book torque specs said to torque those bolts to 15 lbs and use red loctite...I saw no evidence of loctite...but doesn't 15 ft lbs seem awefully low for the kind of load thats on the two metal surfaces of the gears??

does anyone have any different torque specs?

I didn't have a torque wrench and I know I tightened them more than 15 ft lbs (didn't want them to slip again)...Are there any major problems that could result from overtightening the adjuster bolts on the adj. cam gears?

I just wanted to get it running right cus it went into the dealer today to get the water pump fixed (was leaking). I plan on readjusting them properly once I get confirmation on the torque specs (I put an email in to GM Performance Parts also). Thanks for the help,

Matt


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2002 LS Sport coupe

Torque wrench is your best friend, chances are that the bolts can break or strip and you really don't want that. We had the remount a complete motor and believe me, even a brand new bolt can break if overtighten. But it's my opinion, there's probably a place where you can borrow or rent it... Now it's all up to you.. high torque spec are for heavy stuff like the head.. If the book say 15, it's 15, your talking about the cam bearing??? If yes, those thing need to be tighten, but also need to let the oil have a space to do a proper job and prevent that it grip.... correct me if I said anything wrong

its the three bolts on the cam gears that adjust the cam timing...the gears are basically two disks of metal sandwiched together by the bolts...with that much force on the gears from the crank to turn the cams, I thought 15 ft lbs didn't seem like enough considering its the clamoing force of those bolts which keeps the gear locked in place...but I'm no engineer, all I know is that they slipped, and I can only take the mechanic's word for how they were tightened the first time............any feedback is appreciated


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2002 LS Sport coupe

GM PP confirmed...15 ft lbs and red loctite


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2002 LS Sport coupe

Still having problems...any help would be appreciated

OK, I finally got the car to the track on Friday and now its confirmed, I definitely have less power than before the head/cam swap. I ran a 15.7 @ 87 with all the mods except the head/cams now the best I could do was a 16 @ 85, though my third run probably would've been about 15.85 or so @ maybe 86 but I missed third...anyway, my 60' is down .2 sec consistently and my trap speed down 2 mph. It wasn't any hotter out than my runs last year and i wasn't driving any worse (though I still kinda suck). The point is my car is making less power and I can't figure out why.

I know that my a/f ratio is probably rich but with the addition of a stage II head and cams, I should still be making more power with that setup running rich than my previous set up...Right?? since I put my cam gears back to stock the motor has been running pretty good, though it idles rough and still almost stalls out when not warmed up when I push in the clutch coming to a stop, but rarely does stall. My water pump got replaced right after I readjusted the cam gears and since then it seems like the engine whines all the time instead of just at high RPMs. other than the above, there are no other symptoms...my check engine light is usually off, though it came on at the track, but its just my catalyst--I don't think that puts the comp in safe mode, right? so that shouldn't be it. It doesn't hesitate, I'm running 89 octane and it seems to be fine, no detonation or anything...I'm stumped

I want to get it dynoed, but thats not an easy thing for me to do, and I'm probably going to get an SAFC2 but not sure cuz I prob won't need it when I get the s/c (if it ever comes out). Any suggestions????

Thanks


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2002 LS Sport coupe

Matt K wrote:Still having problems...any help would be appreciated

OK, I finally got the car to the track on Friday and now its confirmed, I definitely have less power than before the head/cam swap. I ran a 15.7 @ 87 with all the mods except the head/cams now the best I could do was a 16 @ 85, though my third run probably would've been about 15.85 or so @ maybe 86 but I missed third...anyway, my 60' is down .2 sec consistently and my trap speed down 2 mph. It wasn't any hotter out than my runs last year and i wasn't driving any worse (though I still kinda suck). The point is my car is making less power and I can't figure out why.

I know that my a/f ratio is probably rich but with the addition of a stage II head and cams, I should still be making more power with that setup running rich than my previous set up...Right?? since I put my cam gears back to stock the motor has been running pretty good, though it idles rough and still almost stalls out when not warmed up when I push in the clutch coming to a stop, but rarely does stall. My water pump got replaced right after I readjusted the cam gears and since then it seems like the engine whines all the time instead of just at high RPMs. other than the above, there are no other symptoms...my check engine light is usually off, though it came on at the track, but its just my catalyst--I don't think that puts the comp in safe mode, right? so that shouldn't be it. It doesn't hesitate, I'm running 89 octane and it seems to be fine, no detonation or anything...I'm stumped

I want to get it dynoed, but thats not an easy thing for me to do, and I'm probably going to get an SAFC2 but not sure cuz I prob won't need it when I get the s/c (if it ever comes out). Any suggestions????

Thanks

You're defenitley running rich...get the SAFC and get it tuned.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

I don't see how this can be just a fuel issue....its going to be my next step but there is definitely something else going on...


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2002 LS Sport coupe

Matt K wrote:I don't see how this can be just a fuel issue....its going to be my next step but there is definitely something else going on...

Trust me I know...

First, do you notice your top end just goes no where but your low end is nice and strong? Did you give your car sometime to break in the new parts?



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

dude, with cams and a port job you need a lot more in the way of tuning than just slapping it all together and running it with the stock computer. First off, i doubt you're running rich because the eco ECU is relentless in the pursuit of a 14:1 a/f ratio.... My friend's cav had 440cc injectors on the stock ecu with an adjustable fpr and fmu, and at only 5 psi of boost, the ecu was STILL pulling out injector pulsewidth to attain 14:1 a/f ratio by 6000 rpm. You absolutely NEED to get some type of tuning device that will allow you to add/remove fuel and ignition timing. Then you NEED dyno time to tell what the hell you're doing. You can't tune a car by the seat of your pants and have it anywhere near perfect. Beyond the fact that the headwork with cams is now going to make power well beyond the stock rev limit that you won't even be able to access... Get to a dyno shop that knows what they're doing and tune it right. Otherwise you might as well just take all that stuff back off and sell it because you're never going to have it running right the way you're going about things right now.




Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said

Jay, the only reason I said he was running rich was because I did the same modifications as him and that's what was happening to me. I've found that everybody I know who has upgraded their camshafts (even on stage 1s) are running slightly rich.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837