i did a lil searchin, couldnt really find anything that i understood though. Im interested in the ram air hood for my cavi, but i am worried that water or something else would make its way to my engine parts. what (if i go with the hood) can i do to protect my engine or, is it not that bad to have water in there.


Remember...he who sleeps on the floor, can never fall out of bed.

A little water is actually good if it got into your engine. So your still issue wil lbe, why is my functional hood not really adding power? Because though it looks cool, you will need to be going near 100MPH to get any minute gain from its use.




“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true."

Lawnmowerracer wrote:A little water is actually good if it got into your engine. So your still issue wil lbe, why is my functional hood not really adding power? Because though it looks cool, you will need to be going near 100MPH to get any minute gain from its use.

No offense, but that's not very bright. Water is not good getting into your engine. Water does NOT compress or combust. That is what causes hydrolock and seizes motors. Once water enters the throttle body, to the combusion chamber... you are screwed.




I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.

Ram Air is about as functional as the Venom or resistor mod, you are going to see better gains from a regular intake and a hood thats lighter than stock.
The reason it doesn't work is due to the aerodynamics of our cars. High speed airflow from the front of the car bounces off the front of the hood and hits about eyelevel on the windsheild. For it to be functional the scoop would need to stick about 1 foot off the hood, which is exactly what you see in drag cars.

i've been in a long thread about this before and called all sorts of stuff. but i have the rk sport hood on an ecotec 03' sunfire. the factory intake has been cut and sealed with rubber seal around the hood. the lowwer bong removed and k&n filter installed. my car runs as good as the day i took the stock hood off. and little difference was noticed but it did sound deeper, although an intake could give it the deep tone as well. call rk sport and talk to a rep they actually recomend doing the cut out cause thats why its there. although they dont recomend cutting and blocking the bong side as i did. i haven't noticed water puddles in filter area though either. air doesnt just go in you engine it acts as a vacuum so it runs and idles fine. as far as air flow going into the opening i truely beleive it does go in just fine at any speed. no its not going to be like a ws6 though.

Spotabee Racing wrote:

Lawnmowerracer wrote:A little water is actually good if it got into your engine. So your still issue wil lbe, why is my functional hood not really adding power? Because though it looks cool, you will need to be going near 100MPH to get any minute gain from its use.

No offense, but that's not very bright. Water is not good getting into your engine. Water does NOT compress or combust. That is what causes hydrolock and seizes motors. Once water enters the throttle body, to the combusion chamber... you are screwed.

No offense but your wrong:

A little bit off water is a good thing, Have you ever heard of 5th injector or water injection, to keep the combustion temps down, and suppresses detonation?


When increasing the boost level of a turbocharged vehicle, an undesirable byproduct is an increase in intake temperatures as well as a corresponding increase in combustion temperatures.. These higher intake temperature increase the chance of detonation within the cylinder. The best solution is to add an intercooler when the boost pressure exceeds 12 psi, but this is not always practical due to cost and packaging limitations. The early Chrysler TI (drawthrough) turbo engines are a good example of packaging limitations. It is somewhat difficult to fit an aftermarket intercooler to the factory manifold. This makes it a good canidate for water injection.

Water injection decreases the possibility of detonation by lowering the combustion chamber temperatures and increasing the effective "octane" of the fuel. This allows the engine to run a higher boost and full spark advance without the use of race gas. Additionally, if the water is atomized in the intake stream, there is an additional cooling of the intake charge. Both effects are increased with the inclusion of 50% alcohol to the mix (don't spray the exterior of an intercooler with alcohol!, this refers to internal injection only). The additional fuel of the high octane alcohol will in turn allow boost beyond what the factory fuel system can deliver.

Water injection also has the effect of "steam cleaning" the combustion chambers and exhaust valves. This removes the carbon build up that decreases efficiency and leads to pre-ignition(detonation). It will also keep the throttle body and interior of the intake manifold much cleaner than normal. So says http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html

-AND-

Water injection systems are predominantly useful in forced induction (turbocharged or supercharged), internal combustion engines. Only in extreme cases such as very high compression ratios, very low octane fuel or too much ignition advance can it benefit a normally aspirated engine. The system has been around for a long time since it was already used in some World War II aircraft engines.

A water injection system works similarly to a fuel injection system only it injects water instead of fuel. Water injection is not to be confused with water spraying on the intercooler's surface, water spraying is much less efficient and far less sophisticated.
A turbocharger essentially compresses the air going into the engine in order to force more air than it would be possible using the atmospheric pressure. More air into the engine means automatically that more fuel has to be injected in order to maintain the appropriate stoechiometric value of the air/fuel ratio (around 14:1). More air and fuel into the engine leads to more power. However by compressing the inlet air the turbocharger also heats it. Higher air temperatures lead to thinner air and therefore an altered stoechiometric ratio which results to richer mixtures. Over-heated air intake temperatures can cause detonation.
Detonation, an effect also known as engine knock or pinging, occurs when the air/fuel mixture ignites prematurely or burns incorrectly. In normal engine operation the flame front travels from the spark plug across the cylinder in a predefined pattern. Peak chamber pressure occurs at around 12 degrees after TDC and the piston is pushed down the bore.

In some cases and for reasons such as a poor mixture, too high engine or inlet temperatures, too low octane fuels, too much ignition advance, too much turbo boost, etc. the primary flame front initiated by the spark plug may be followed by a second flame front. The chamber pressure then rises too rapidly for piston movement to relieve it. The pressure and temperature become so great that all the mixture in the chamber explodes in an uncontrolled manner. If the force of that explosion is severe some of the engine's moving parts (pistons, rods, valves, crank) will be destroyed.
Detonation, in any engine, should always be avoided by either lowering inlet temperatures, using higher octane fuel, retarding ignition (hence lowering engine output), lowering engine blow-by (a situation in which high crankcase pressure sends oil fumes back inside the combustion chamber), running the engine a little richer than at the stoechiometric ratio, lowering the compression ratio and/or boost pressure, ... .
Water injection is used to lower in-cylinder temperatures and burn the air/fuel mixture more efficiently thus helping avoid detonation.

In high pressure turbocharged engines the air/fuel mixture that enters the cylinders can, in some cases, explode prematurely (before the spark plug ignites) due to the extreme engine environment conditions. This situation is extremely destructive and results in severe engine damage (piston piercing). To avoid damaging the engine by detonation or pre-ignition phenomena, water is injected, along with fuel, in the combustion chambers in order to provide a water/air/fuel mixture which not only burns more efficiently and avoids detonation or pre-ignition but also provides additional inlet air cooling and, hence, denser air. The sole function of water injection is avoiding detonation.

There are mainly three variations of water injection systems. They are dependent of the location of the water injectors. The first technique consists of injecting water at the entrance of the intake manifold. The second injects water at the exit pipe of the intercooler. The third technique injects water at the entry of the intercooler and is only used in competition vehicles. In this latter variation most of the in-cylinder detonation prevention is done by injecting additional fuel which is then used as coolant (i.e. is not burned) and runs the engine above the stoechiometric ratio (i.e. rich).

How water injection works

The system is, usually, made up of 3 elements:

A water injector (similar to a fuel injector)

A high pressure pump (capable of attaining at least 3 to 4 bar pressure and sometimes even more)

A pressure sensor connected to the inlet manifold

An inlet air temperature sensor

Usually a water injection system is engaged when the inlet air temperature is exceeding a certain value, typically 40 degrees Celsius, and the engine is on boost. The most advanced systems add to the above electronic circuitry that provides 3D cartography similar to what is used in fuel injection systems. Cartography based devices take into account many more parameters such air/fuel ratio, throttle position and so on. so says http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

-OR-

1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio.
2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.
3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol mixture.
4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available.
5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95%, is cheap and is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content.
6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
13. Maximum water delivery should be in higher load low to mid rpm ranges tapering somewhat at peak rpms where load is less.
14. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
15. Don’t flow water through an intercooler.
16. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Multiple nozzes, equally spaced in the plenum, although it complicates things, is a superior design.
17. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. It’s always about torque.
18. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it.
19. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time. Unless a solenoid can open as fast as a fuel injector it should not be used to "pulse" water injection events.
20. Varying voltage to water injection pumps or using similar schemes is a recipe for disaster. You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them.
21. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.
22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGT’s will peak.
27. Ferrari suspended water in their fuel during their 1980’s Formula1 period. We don’t recommend that you try this...although Acetone will mix with water.

According to http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

So here is some more referance Links you might like to read, before you say a little water is a bad thing.

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0115
http://www.europeancarweb.com/projectcars/0304ec_projm3_02/
http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=80&nid=98431
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29
http://www.hackaday.com/entry/1234000393047637/
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=116462&page=1
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/race/renaultf1/renault.html
http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/performancetuning/water_injection.htm










“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true."

Water leaking into your engine through a hole cut your hood in an uncontrolled manner is completely different than ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Lawnmowerracer wrote:

Spotabee Racing wrote:

Lawnmowerracer wrote:A little water is actually good if it got into your engine. So your still issue wil lbe, why is my functional hood not really adding power? Because though it looks cool, you will need to be going near 100MPH to get any minute gain from its use.

No offense, but that's not very bright. Water is not good getting into your engine. Water does NOT compress or combust. That is what causes hydrolock and seizes motors. Once water enters the throttle body, to the combusion chamber... you are screwed.

No offense but your wrong:

A little bit off water is a good thing, Have you ever heard of 5th injector or water injection, to keep the combustion temps down, and suppresses detonation?


When increasing the boost level of a turbocharged vehicle, an undesirable byproduct is an increase in intake temperatures as well as a corresponding increase in combustion temperatures.. These higher intake temperature increase the chance of detonation within the cylinder. The best solution is to add an intercooler when the boost pressure exceeds 12 psi, but this is not always practical due to cost and packaging limitations. The early Chrysler TI (drawthrough) turbo engines are a good example of packaging limitations. It is somewhat difficult to fit an aftermarket intercooler to the factory manifold. This makes it a good canidate for water injection.

Water injection decreases the possibility of detonation by lowering the combustion chamber temperatures and increasing the effective "octane" of the fuel. This allows the engine to run a higher boost and full spark advance without the use of race gas. Additionally, if the water is atomized in the intake stream, there is an additional cooling of the intake charge. Both effects are increased with the inclusion of 50% alcohol to the mix (don't spray the exterior of an intercooler with alcohol!, this refers to internal injection only). The additional fuel of the high octane alcohol will in turn allow boost beyond what the factory fuel system can deliver.

Water injection also has the effect of "steam cleaning" the combustion chambers and exhaust valves. This removes the carbon build up that decreases efficiency and leads to pre-ignition(detonation). It will also keep the throttle body and interior of the intake manifold much cleaner than normal. So says http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html

-AND-

Water injection systems are predominantly useful in forced induction (turbocharged or supercharged), internal combustion engines. Only in extreme cases such as very high compression ratios, very low octane fuel or too much ignition advance can it benefit a normally aspirated engine. The system has been around for a long time since it was already used in some World War II aircraft engines.

A water injection system works similarly to a fuel injection system only it injects water instead of fuel. Water injection is not to be confused with water spraying on the intercooler's surface, water spraying is much less efficient and far less sophisticated.
A turbocharger essentially compresses the air going into the engine in order to force more air than it would be possible using the atmospheric pressure. More air into the engine means automatically that more fuel has to be injected in order to maintain the appropriate stoechiometric value of the air/fuel ratio (around 14:1). More air and fuel into the engine leads to more power. However by compressing the inlet air the turbocharger also heats it. Higher air temperatures lead to thinner air and therefore an altered stoechiometric ratio which results to richer mixtures. Over-heated air intake temperatures can cause detonation.
Detonation, an effect also known as engine knock or pinging, occurs when the air/fuel mixture ignites prematurely or burns incorrectly. In normal engine operation the flame front travels from the spark plug across the cylinder in a predefined pattern. Peak chamber pressure occurs at around 12 degrees after TDC and the piston is pushed down the bore.

In some cases and for reasons such as a poor mixture, too high engine or inlet temperatures, too low octane fuels, too much ignition advance, too much turbo boost, etc. the primary flame front initiated by the spark plug may be followed by a second flame front. The chamber pressure then rises too rapidly for piston movement to relieve it. The pressure and temperature become so great that all the mixture in the chamber explodes in an uncontrolled manner. If the force of that explosion is severe some of the engine's moving parts (pistons, rods, valves, crank) will be destroyed.
Detonation, in any engine, should always be avoided by either lowering inlet temperatures, using higher octane fuel, retarding ignition (hence lowering engine output), lowering engine blow-by (a situation in which high crankcase pressure sends oil fumes back inside the combustion chamber), running the engine a little richer than at the stoechiometric ratio, lowering the compression ratio and/or boost pressure, ... .
Water injection is used to lower in-cylinder temperatures and burn the air/fuel mixture more efficiently thus helping avoid detonation.

In high pressure turbocharged engines the air/fuel mixture that enters the cylinders can, in some cases, explode prematurely (before the spark plug ignites) due to the extreme engine environment conditions. This situation is extremely destructive and results in severe engine damage (piston piercing). To avoid damaging the engine by detonation or pre-ignition phenomena, water is injected, along with fuel, in the combustion chambers in order to provide a water/air/fuel mixture which not only burns more efficiently and avoids detonation or pre-ignition but also provides additional inlet air cooling and, hence, denser air. The sole function of water injection is avoiding detonation.

There are mainly three variations of water injection systems. They are dependent of the location of the water injectors. The first technique consists of injecting water at the entrance of the intake manifold. The second injects water at the exit pipe of the intercooler. The third technique injects water at the entry of the intercooler and is only used in competition vehicles. In this latter variation most of the in-cylinder detonation prevention is done by injecting additional fuel which is then used as coolant (i.e. is not burned) and runs the engine above the stoechiometric ratio (i.e. rich).

How water injection works

The system is, usually, made up of 3 elements:

A water injector (similar to a fuel injector)

A high pressure pump (capable of attaining at least 3 to 4 bar pressure and sometimes even more)

A pressure sensor connected to the inlet manifold

An inlet air temperature sensor

Usually a water injection system is engaged when the inlet air temperature is exceeding a certain value, typically 40 degrees Celsius, and the engine is on boost. The most advanced systems add to the above electronic circuitry that provides 3D cartography similar to what is used in fuel injection systems. Cartography based devices take into account many more parameters such air/fuel ratio, throttle position and so on. so says http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

-OR-

1. Maximum Torque occurs at a 13.2:1 Air Fuel Ratio.
2. Transitional Fueling and Maximum Boost Air Fuel Ratios are about 12.5:1.
3. Water Injection is most efficient with a 50/50 water alcohol mixture.
4. Methanol, as an additive, is not a practical choice as it is prone to pre-ignition, is not safe to handle and is not readily available.
5. Denatured (ethanol) alcohol, typically 95%, is cheap and is available in paint, hardware, and Home Depot type stores in gallon containers for about $10.00. Isopropyl alcohol can be used but it is often 30% or more water by content.
6. Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive or closer to stock. In other words boost does not automatically mean retard your timing.
7. Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating.
8. Water to Fuel ratios should be based on weight and not volume.
9 . Water weighs 8.33 lb per gallon.
10. Alcohol weighs 6.63 lb per gallon.
11. Air weighs .080645 lb per cubic foot. It takes about 150 cubic feet of air per 100 horsepower. It takes about 12 lb of air per 100 horsepower.
12. Water or Water / Alcohol to Fuel Ratios are between 12.5% to 25%. This means Air to Fluid Ratios are between 11.1:1 and 10.0:1 with water injection.
13. Maximum water delivery should be in higher load low to mid rpm ranges tapering somewhat at peak rpms where load is less.
14. Atomization of the water mixture is directly related to it effectiveness. Finer droplets cool the inlet charge better and with less mass they navigate the inlet plenum easier for more equal water distribution.
15. Don’t flow water through an intercooler.
16. Atomized water, just like fuel , does not like to make turns thus making accurate distribution something to think about. This is why port fuel injection is the norm. Water is a fluid just like your fuel. Multiple nozzes, equally spaced in the plenum, although it complicates things, is a superior design.
17. The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque. It’s always about torque.
18. Racing high octane gasoline should be used for all forms of competition and for higher than normal boost levels. Water injection as well as charge cooling should be used with racing gas. 91/92 Octane pump gas simply will not cut it.
19. Fuel Injectors operate in the 1 Millisecond range and are not capable of long term usage for H20 as they will corrode or rust shut in a very short period of time. Unless a solenoid can open as fast as a fuel injector it should not be used to "pulse" water injection events.
20. Varying voltage to water injection pumps or using similar schemes is a recipe for disaster. You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them.
21. Fuel Injection pumps cannot be used for water injection. Water is conductive. Gasoline is not. Water will corrode an efi pump shut in a very short period of time.
22. Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder. Exhaust temperatures (EGT) are largely unaffected at recommended water / fuel ratios.
23. The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion.
24. Higher static compression ratios will require a higher percentage of water or water / alcohol.
25. No, water does not burn. We are not combusting the hydrogen in the H2O.
26. At around 13.2:1 or fuel air ratios of .75, EGT’s will peak.
27. Ferrari suspended water in their fuel during their 1980’s Formula1 period. We don’t recommend that you try this...although Acetone will mix with water.

According to http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

So here is some more referance Links you might like to read, before you say a little water is a bad thing.

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0115
http://www.europeancarweb.com/projectcars/0304ec_projm3_02/
http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=80&nid=98431
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29
http://www.hackaday.com/entry/1234000393047637/
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=116462&page=1
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/race/renaultf1/renault.html
http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/performancetuning/water_injection.htm

somebody got owned ouch, i believe if memory serves me right there are at least 2 cars on the org with some similar type of set up







'spit chew hits soldiers boot'
"thats a real nasty habit you got there"
"this stuff will make you a sexual tyransaur just like me"
jesse the body ventura in Predator

BlackEco wrote:Water leaking into your engine through a hole cut your hood in an uncontrolled manner is completely different than ^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only way your gonna seize your engine with an air ram hood, is if you drive the car to where water levels are over your filter height.

So think about this, for 1 moment. Its raining, and you have an air ram hood, and the hood ducting directs incomming air into your Air box where your cone filter sits. So the water drips from in front the top side of the filter, gets pulled inwards and still drops to the bottom part of your filter.

You need to be at full throttle, and the filter submerged, before your engine starts pulling in enough water to even begin to damage your engine.

So before you say BS, Think about it. Or even test it.

Take a spray bottle, and spray your filter while the car is on. What happens?




“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true."

Your trying to equate water leaking in through a ram air hood into your intake with water injection as being "good" for your engine.

Yes and try sticking a vacuum sweeper under your shower sometime and see if 100% of the water makes it to the tub basin, if the water isn't atomized its potentially dangerous getting sucked into the engine.
I made no comment about how the Ram Air hood functions with this, however my guess is if you were in a heavy downpour you would me more likely to be sucking water into your engine than with a WAI and thus potentially more dangerous.

Ram Air hood is good for show, but you aren't doing your engine any "good" if it happens to suck in a bunch of water.
Ram Air hood cannot cause hyrdrolock you are correct because unless you dive into a pond the intake is not going to be submerged but never the less it doesn't mean the water can't harm your engine. My guess is that any minor amount of water entering through the intake would probabally evaporate before even getting to the combustion chamber.

Lawnmowerracer wrote:

BlackEco wrote:Water leaking into your engine through a hole cut your hood in an uncontrolled manner is completely different than ^^^^^^^^^^^^

The only way your gonna seize your engine with an air ram hood, is if you drive the car to where water levels are over your filter height.

So think about this, for 1 moment. Its raining, and you have an air ram hood, and the hood ducting directs incomming air into your Air box where your cone filter sits. So the water drips from in front the top side of the filter, gets pulled inwards and still drops to the bottom part of your filter.

You need to be at full throttle, and the filter submerged, before your engine starts pulling in enough water to even begin to damage your engine.

So before you say BS, Think about it. Or even test it.

Take a spray bottle, and spray your filter while the car is on. What happens?

had mine on the car for 2 years and its been in snow and rain. no problems. just stay out of deep puddles or tidal waves that may go over and into the hood opening. 65mph on the interstate while raining had no effect. heck maybe i did get water in there and just didnt notice, due to its performance enhancement. drilling a 1/4 inch hole in bottom of intake box isnt a bad idea either, just for a little drainage.