OK, i need some help about what to do in the future. I want to do some block work. I plan on going all motor.

As of now, i have a stage II head(p&p, oversized valves) with stage I cams. I'm am pretty sure that i am making power after the redline since a p&p head does shift the powerband towards the top.

Now for the block I could either stroke or destroke. Destroking will allow me to saftly raise the redline, so i can use the power that i have above the redline. If i stroke it, the redline will be lower, but would the powerband change too? Like would have all of my power be below the original redline, assuming i currently am making power above the redline?

I'm just looking for a general answer with motors. Does stroking the motor lower the powerband? If so, i'm going to look into a 2.4l ecotec block swap, because they should be interchangeable with the 2.2l.

Thanks in advance, i hope its not a dumb question. It has just been bothering me.

When it comes to 4 cylinder cars, it's better to have more RPMs but to have power throughout those RPMs. For example, that's why Hondas have so much power when they are built up for all motor...they can red line at 8000 RPMs and also they VVT for the V-tec motors. Also, you don't want to have an 8000 RPM red line but have no power till 6000 RPMs, that's a waste and it will not help. The good thing about our motors is that we have big displacements (for 4 cylinders) so we build more torque than a Honda motor. If you can somehow raise your rev limiter to say 8000 or 7500, you should experience a significant amount of power that you could reach before.

Also, in order to raise your red line, I believe right now...the only way you can is if you get a Stand Alone which is some major $$$

The bottom end is very important and expensive so before you go diving into it, make sure you know you know what route you want to go as far as all motor, turbo, supercharged or nitrous. If you want to boost, lowering the compression is a good idea. All motor you can raise it if you choose to, same with nitrous.

I believe stroking would give you more torque and possibly bring your power band down but I'm not fully sure on that. The 2.4 ECOTECs gain allot of power cause they actually have VVT (Variable Valve Timing) and have allot of potential...it should be ok to swap but the only problem would be the computer. You'd have to take the computer off the car you got it from because their computer is programmed to control the VVT, yours isn't.

It's really up to you on what you want to do. I believe that your ECOTEC already has allot of potential and your money should go into your current motor, you wouldn't be disappointed. Good luck with your decision.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

I think JBP can raise the limiter. If i do keep the same block, then i would need to raise the limiter a bit to get all of my power. About the VVT, i thought GM said that the 2.2 can take new technologies like VVT. So when it comes out, i'm going to check it out and see what needs to be done to make the swap. They say it has something to do with the lash.

If i stay with the 2.2, then i would get it bored .02" over(?), forged connecting rods, and high compression. I would try to go for the highest compression that it can take without hitting the valves. Is there anything else i can do besides stroking?

Does higher compression affect a certain part of the powerband? I know a higher compression will cause a bigger explostion in the cylinder, but is that good for low end, or top end, or a combo of both?

high compression will effect the entire powerband. lighter crank, rods, and pistons (balanced, of course) will allow the engine to redline faster, as will pulleys, flywheel, and lighter wheels.

check out bernouli's principle for your external upgrades, this goes for intake & exhaust manifolds & pipe which will play a large part in top/bottom tuning.

advancing your timing will also increase compression because the spark will usually fire before top dead center, even though it's only a few .000's of an inch it still helps, this is actually why the black boxes (venom, jet, exct.) seem to work, when you go wide open throttle the timing advances. yes i have seen this on scan data. using higher octane will allow higher more advanced timing as the PCM recognizes it.



CAR GODS MADE THE 1.6 SOHC TO MAKE US 2.2 OHV GUYS FEEL BETTER.

I advanced the timing once and it sucked. No torque, but a strong top end. So i wont do that.

Does anyone know what is the highest compression ratio that the ecotec can take?

If i keep my stroke the same, how much higher can i saftly raise my redline, and how would i know how high to raise it? Trail and Error?

After i do my suspension, i might do this. I'll finish the interals, then mod the externals to make the best results. I like to plan ahead.

Quote:

Does anyone know what is the highest compression ratio that the ecotec can take?

No one really around here has tried a high compression piston swap and if they have, they haven't talked about it on the org. I would say that most people who have 4 cylinders who go all motor and raise the compression, they go usually go for 10:5:1 ratio or 11:1 ratio. Sometimes you read about the Honda guys who do something crazy like 12:1 or 13:1 but for our motors, I wouldn't risk something that high cause you have to remember you need the right octane to run your motor properly.

I would say highest you want to go is 11:1 ratio but you want to make sure you have everything to have it run properly (Fuel Management system, MSD Ignition system, High octane fuel etc.). If you have the money, you can get a standalone which is a MAJOR upgrade cause it's like your adding a computer that you can alter to your will, so the talk your making about "raising your redline" is possible with that. You can put your redline to 8000 RPMs if you wanted to.

If you do raise your compression and have your motor open for that period of time, I would do all the bells and whisltes to your motor to save time & money from doing it again in the future. Save up!



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

Quote:

If you have the money, you can get a standalone which is a MAJOR upgrade cause it's like your adding a computer that you can alter to your will

Let's say i did get the standalone. Would it be like the software that is trying to be made for our motor? Or would i have more control over things? And is their any performance advantages i would recieve. Like could I free up things that the motor restricts, if it does. Someone in the racing forum said that a well tuned ecotec puts out like 180 at the crank because of the computer. How does that work?

So what is the difference between the software and a standalone?

Quote:

Would it be like the software that is trying to be made for our motor? Or would i have more control over things?

I'm not 100% sure. I believe that it can be motor or computer specific. For example: AEM EMS, I know they make a bunch of them for different applications specific. I believe they are or is one out for the ECOTEC motor. The ECOTEC GM Drag cars use one that I believe will work also. Off-hand I can't remember the name of the company that makes it...I'll find out later and post it.

Quote:

And is their any performance advantages i would recieve.

Not performance advantages, per say...more like performance controls. You can literally control everything. You want a run a high grind cam shaft but afraid of codes...with a standalone, you don't have to worry about it. You can set it to accept it with no issues of codes or knock problems. You see what I mean?

Quote:

Like could I free up things that the motor restricts, if it does.

Exactly

Quote:

Someone in the racing forum said that a well tuned ecotec puts out like 180 at the crank because of the computer.

Probably because the computer is set to run for the best gas mileage, not for performance (as in running mainly for performance). There are probably fuel and ignition tricks that the computer does to keep the power down but the gas mileage up.

So what is the difference between the software and a standalone?

Software for example Greddy e-manage only tricks the computer into thinking you need x amount of fuel and x ignition timing.

A standalone is an actual computer that takes over completely. You need a pro to install that bad boy. It literally controls ever sensor in the vehicle and you can alter it as you please. You want 8000 RPM red line, at your will.

I hope I've answered your questions alright...



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

Thanks man. You have been really helpful. I would like to do all of this sometime. Not now. I need to save some money. I think i have constructed a pretty good plan:

Bore, lighter crank, connecting rods, high compression, msd, and eventually a standalone. I got a plan, i just need to do it.

crackajax wrote:Thanks man. You have been really helpful. I would like to do all of this sometime. Not now. I need to save some money. I think i have constructed a pretty good plan:

Bore, lighter crank, connecting rods, high compression, msd, and eventually a standalone. I got a plan, i just need to do it.

No problem. If you get all that done be sure to bring us some time slips and dyno #s.
Good Luck to you...



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

there is one guy on here----shifted---who is working on some software that should beable to take your stock computer and turn it onto a standalone. meaning you will be able to change/program the computer to operate the way you want i.e. changing fuel and spark tables ignition timing, etc.



04 sunfire auto, mid 15's n/a, and still going

Judt chiming in my 2 cents. The AEM EMS is actually the exact same hardware for ever car they sell (i believe) and the software already on it is whats different. They have gone throught, taken their time, and programmed it so its a plug and play job, i.e. you don't have to tell the computer how to run the air conditioning etc. I believe the j-body AEM has NOT taken the time yet to make a programming. So, its going to be a lot of work to install. In addition to splicing into a lot of wires, removing the stock computer, and mounting the AEM, you'll need to complete all the programming for it. Definately will need a full factory manual for that.

So, the difference in the software being developed and AEM is AEM is a box you install to replace the stock computer. the software keeps the stock hardware, and allows it to be programable. in (hopefully) all aspects that an AEM would be.

As for the ecotec highest compression, i thought suncavi was running an ecotec, with the stock compression of like 10.5:1 and running 7 psi of boost too. so, if you were going all motor, i'm not sure what to recommend, but maybe 11.5 would be better or 12.
just dun ever boost it, lol.

actually doesnt quite work the same with boost and N/A. yes boost does raise the cylinder pressures but with 10:1 compression and 7 psi you can still run 87 octane no problem properly tuned but theres no chance in hell you would run 12:1 with 87 octane and expect to get anything out of it and probably detonate the motor to hell



04 sunfire auto, mid 15's n/a, and still going

04eco (roy) wrote:actually doesnt quite work the same with boost and N/A. yes boost does raise the cylinder pressures but with 10:1 compression and 7 psi you can still run 87 octane no problem properly tuned but theres no chance in hell you would run 12:1 with 87 octane and expect to get anything out of it and probably detonate the motor to hell

I see. could you with premium 93 octane? And I am not sure if suncavi was running regular or premium.

Could the ecotec run 12:1?

Quote:

could you with premium 93 octane?

It would run MUCH better with a higher octane gas...93 would be ideal but high power all motor ECOTECs aren't seen often so we can't really answer if that is the best octane gas for it. For all we know, it could run properly but would perform better with racing fuel.

Quote:

Could the ecotec run 12:1?

Probably.

If I was doing this, I would do 11:1 and call it a day and not try and risk anything too high.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

With an 11:1 compression ratio could i still use nitrous? Like a small shot?

After my suspension, i think i'll buy a 4-2-1 header, maybe the venom IM, then the block. After that I'll look into a standalone, unless that software comes out.

So money wise, the header will be $280 (Defined Parts ), IM- $1100, and the block should around $2000 for parts. I will need a mechanic to help me with the block though.

This is going to be so cool.

Quote:

With an 11:1 compression ratio could i still use nitrous? Like a small shot?

Nitrous has nothing to do with compression but more with temperature.

Just a quick rundown of nitrous:

The Nitrous is N2O, the O standing for Oxygen. What happends is when the nitrous is injected into your motor, the heat breaks down the N, Nitrogen, and whats left is Oxygen which is helps break down things inside your motor. The more air you get inside your motor, the more power that is produced. So if anything, it has nothing to do with compression but has to deal with temperature. For more nitrous knowledge, talk to the guys in the Nitrous forum who know a little more than I do and who actually use it.

Quote:

the header will be $280 (Defined Parts )

Good Ol' Defined Parts....

Quote:

the block should around $2000 for parts

If you do the right shopping it should be less than $2000 but it's the actual labor that will cost you an arm.




www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

11:1 is the highest GM Preformance recommends on stock internals...

maybe a small shot.

th IM from venom is WAY too expensive... the stock one is fine unless youve going into the 400-600 hp range...

read the ecotec book... they take the eco and go from 250-1300HP.





"There is no point in looking fast if your not."

I read the ecotec book, but i dont plan on being that high in hp n/a. Having a better flowing IM is worth it for what i am doing. If i was boosting, then i might wait, but since i'm not, i will need it.

Quote:

11:1 is the highest GM Preformance recommends on stock internals...

He's actually not talking about stock internals...he wants to change everything (crank, pistons, rods) as far as the bottom end.

Quote:

maybe a small shot.

He can put as much of a shot he wants with Forged internals but the part he has to worry about is his fuel & ignition timing.

Quote:

the IM from venom is WAY too expensive...

It's expensive now but give it end of the summer and closer to the end of the year, it will be fully out and dropped price.

Quote:

the stock one is fine unless youve going into the 400-600 hp range...

Actually the stock one is very restrictive and he needs more air for the modifications that he is going to do.

There is actually a post going on about how restrictive it is:

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=297315&t=297315#297315

^^^ Hope that is a bit usefull to you...



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

crackajax wrote:I read the ecotec book, but i dont plan on being that high in hp n/a. Having a better flowing IM is worth it for what i am doing.

If your doing what you say your doing, than you'll be doing 200+ easy with everything done properly.

Also remember, with all this power your doing, you need to upgrade your transmission with a bigger torque converter.

Here is a company that can help you with specs on what you will need that's based in California:

http://www.specriteconverters.com/contact.asp

Quote:

If i was boosting, then i might wait, but since i'm not, i will need it

If you were boosting, you would benefit more from a log style Intake manifold (like the one that Twistec performance makes).



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

so the price for the intake manifold might drop? i might wait then.

You have a torque converter link! I couldnt find anything when i searched. Do these torque converters put more to the wheels and handle more power? Whats a good rpm stall for our motors?

then why does GM use the stock one on the 250+hp car in the book......?



"There is no point in looking fast if your not."

Quote:

so the price for the intake manifold might drop? i might wait then.

Yeah, from what I heard the 2.4 Venom Manifold came out the same way, expensive but dropped down eventually at the price it's at now. It's so expensive because it's new and not fully out...kind of special order.

Quote:

You have a torque converter link! I couldnt find anything when i searched.

Yeah, I had it in my back pocket LOL I did alot of research on it so far so I saved the link...

Quote:

Do these torque converters put more to the wheels and handle more power?

Yes, having a bigger torque converter will be able to transfer more power to the wheels. The only reason that manuals are "faster" is because of gearing and they have less drivetrain loss than we do...I believe they have about 10% drivetrain loss. Autos have about 15%-20% or more drive train loss.

So pretty much, yes to more both questions...

Quote:

Whats a good rpm stall for our motors?

Call that company and tell them you want to do and what you have done and they will build you one to what you should have.






www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

Red2.ZCavi (The Slanky One) wrote:then why does GM use the stock one on the 250+hp car in the book......?

Because they wanted to say that you "can" use it while having 250+ HP but what I'm saying is that if you have 250+ HP with your stock manifold, look how much more gains you can get from the Venom Intake Manifold.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837