Ok I searched but never got a direct answer so I will ask myself

I located a 2.3 head today and secret cams in a yard...I got the intake cam from a 95 grand am. The exhaust cam and head along with HO intake and enhaust mani were on a 92 pontiac grand am. I though it was weird that LO exhaust cam was mated to a 086 head and HO manifold. Anyways I pulled the ENTIRE top end including the exhaust and intake mani, the exhaust mani looked different to all the other HO engines and LO engines in the yard, so I pulled it and decided I will ask you guys about it. It looks like a stainless header instead of a cast mani. Picture is at the end of this post.

So with that question out of the way, what problems are presented with running the secret cams and the 086 head on a 2.4? Are there valve clearance issues? does anyone have a straight forward answer to this? I know I will have to run 93 octane gas on this engine if I do this swap... but is there any problems with detonation when the engine is under load?

I know I have to modify the cooling passages and what not to get this head to fit so thats not an issue.

If I install this head, can I run a 50 "wet" shot of nitrous on this setup with the stock head bolts?

Anyways, heres the pics of the exhaust mani.





I hope the pics work, if not they are on my car domain page. Click


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

i wouldnt use that mani


THE GUY SURE LOOKS LIKE PLANT FOOD TO ME!!!

sorry for the double picture, here is the other one.

Why woundlt you use this manifold? This is like a header design 4-2-1 manifold.


Any other opinions?


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

you'll want ARP head studs and possibly rod bolts and with that 100 shot... 93 octane plus some octane booster definitely




I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.

I said 50 shot


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

i'm an idiot. lol. ARP products always make things easier. it's not like it's a large amount of money either.




I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.

yeah I know I just wish I knew what this header design was from and whether or not the valve clearance will be an issue here


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

that's the original LO manifold, it's VERY restrictive for it's design.

check out quad4forums.com and ask around for hints and tips on what you need.

that exhaust manifold is the Lo like said above. No good over 5000rpm. <- prove on a dyno. it was the manifold from 87 to around 92 for the Lo engine.

Did you mesure the cam? The G/A were special car. I bought an Lo engine with Ho cams, 086 head and Ho intake manifold. So I say, mesure your exhaust cam.

Valve clearance? hum, probably. I would have to do some calculation with my other 086 head to give you the real answer.



Gilles
2.3 Ho

also dont forget. the HO and LO used the same heads during a few years, which is why you found a 086 head. with that header manifold on there, i would say its still got low output cams in it.


but, i usually dont mess with 2.4s, so i dont know how much valve to piston clearence you have once you swap heads.


.

<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/speedvisioncavalier"><img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/speedvisioncavalier/new%20sig.jpg"> </a><img src="http://www.precizion.org/animatedz.gif">
"What are we going to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, try to make the SVC go faster!"

SVC - I bought my spare engine from a 90 Ga auto. So automaticly, it's a Lo. I tear down the engine. 9.5:1 pistons, Ho cams(mesure at .410), Ho intake manifold and Lo exhaust manifold.

I would mesure the cam to be sure.



Gilles
2.3 Ho

Well you two are the ones whos attention I was trying to attract. (MFK-223 and Speedvisioncavalier)

So I went back to the yard today and I found another 086 HO Pontiac Grand Am. I tore it down to find out that it had the HO intake mani, the 086 head, the LO exhaust cam (secret cam swap) and the Cast Iron exhaust mani I will post pics later to show you what I mean. and I found a cavalier with the 2.3 and I grabed the intake cam and the throttle bracket, and the TB, and Cruise Cable. So now I think I have the right exhaust mani and 2 HO intakes, 2 sets of "secret cams", and Another 086 head. All for 20 bucks. I was kinda astonished that the HO GA had LO Cams in it. with the HO Exhaust and Intake.

Thats besides the point though. I still need to know about the Valve Clearance issues, if there are any. I have a spare block in the shop for a 2.4 and I was gonna bolt it all together and turn it over a few times by hand to see if the valves hit, but then I thought... wait a second here, hydraulic lifters...duh they have to pump up, so I am gonna scrap that idea. I guess I could soak the lifters in oil for a day or two just so they pump up and see what happens then. This project is almost more work than it is worth. Not to mention, when I finish all this up, I still have to have a exhaust system made up. But there arent that many people on here who seem to know much about the swap so hopefully I will get something going here so I can help people out in the future. I am going to the Dyno soon to get a baseline of the car without the cam swap or the head swap, just to see what kinda numbers change when its all done. I will keep pics updated as a reference in the future.

I need to find out about the Valve clearance though like I mentioned above with the secret cam swap on the 086 head. If anyone can figure this out and help me please do so..... Sorry to make such a long post.....


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

when you took the GA engine appart, was there any valve relief on the piston? Like I said, some Lo can have the 086 head with Ho manifold. The GA was the special one of the family. they had all kind of mix. The truth about the engine is the pistons. Lo had no valve relief and a deep recesse head. The ho pistons had valves relief with a smaller recessed head.

What you have to watch out too is that you have 2 cast exhaust manifold. the real Ho 89-92 and the Lo version 92-95. The 93-94 Ho had the "lo" version. a smaller manifold with smaller runner. That's why you may have found a 086 with a smaller exhaust manifold that look like the Ho. the intake manifold can be the Ho tough.

You can turn the engine by hand even if the lifter don't have any oil pressure. There's something you can use to check the valves clearance. Buy some modeling compound. You know, Plasticine?!?!? You put that on the top of your piston to cover the dish and maybe a bit over and you turn the engine by hand. That way you'll see where the valves stop or if they hit the pistons.

what you could do too is build yourself a .375" rod. you can then put it on the intake valves and see how much it come out of the CC. it's from the dynosaure age and not 100% accurate but it will give you an idea.



Gilles
2.3 Ho

I will do those tests then and see what I come up with.

I just went outside a while ago and measured the exhaust cam that I pulled today that I thought was the LO cam, turns out it has .410" of lift so it is the HO Cam. Threw me off for a while because it has the same casting number as the LO Cam that I pulled yesterday that has .375" of lift. I do however have 2 cams from the 95 intake side.

I dont know for sure that I have the HO Exhaust mani but I pulled it from a 92 or 91 GA I think. Anyone have part numbers for the ACTUAL HO exhaust mani. I know have the HO Intake manifold because I am the pround owner now of 2 HO Intake Manifolds and 2 LO Intake Manifolds. I guess tomorrow I will start the rebuilding of my spare block (To check valve clearance on the 086 head on the secret cams.

I Did notice when I yanked the head off of the 2.3 HO today that the intake side of the pistons had valve reliefs cut in them and there was a rather substantial dish in the piston. So I do know what you are talking about there Gilles. However I thought that the 2.3 water pump was belt driven. The engine I tore apart today had the same setup as the 2.4 which is timing chain driven. Is it worth it to go back out there and get the 2.3 HO Crank pulley? Will it make that much of a difference?

Anyways, I will start the rebuild of that engine probably tonight just so I can hurry up and find out the issues with that head. PICS ARE SOON TO FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

if it's the smaller pulley it's worth it. 90-91 pulley only and only from the Ho. if you want to measure it, it's suppose to be 140mm.

Ho and Lo had the same casting number. Yes the water pump is chain driven.

Valve relief on the piston can only mean that the engine is an Ho.

91-92 Ho had the bigger manifold. I wouldn't worry about that.



Gilles
2.3 Ho

Well, I did one test and it didnt turn out good at all. I installed one piston on the block and I set it at TDC. then I installed the top end of the motor with head gasket and torqued everything down tight. I put the Exhaust Cam and Intake cam on and I could get about 120 degrees on the cam before it hit the piston. I started to think about it and the test is uneventful for the simple fact that you dont know exactly where the piston is when the valves start to open and close, so tomorrow I will slap the timing chain on and see what kind of results that I yield from that. hopefully things will turn out better tomorrow. I really want to get this head on my car and see what kind of performance that it produces.

Here is my question... by puting the LO Exhaust Cam and 95 intake cam on, am I defeating the purpose of the swap?

Can I have a machine shop mill out some of the "meat" on the head in the cumbustion chamber to lower the compression ratio and simply take advantage of the better flowing head and still running a mid grade octane gas?

Get back to me and let me know


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

Well I hooked up the timing chain and what do you know..... everything clears....

now I need to figure out a way lower this CR to about 10.5:1 I will try to locate a copper head gasket that will do the trick. Anyone have a SCE Gasket? Cant wait to complete this swap.....


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

you can get a copper head gasket, in different thicknesses, but you shouldnt go too much thicker. are you wanting to run boost? you can EASILY run 10.5:1 compression on an N/A street motor. i would not bother with a copper gasket if you are staying N/A. if you want to run a power adder, then you should really still use a normal thickness gasket, and replace the pistons with forged units to correct your compression ratio.

mid grade gas? 2.3HO motors all required premium, so get ready for that. none of this mid grade stuff.

as for the 2.3HO pulley, its easy to spot. the 3 holes in the "spokes" of the pulley are exactly in the middle, while the low output pulley has the holes closer to the center. (the holes are the same distance from the center, but the spokes are longer, so you can see the difference)


.

<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/speedvisioncavalier"><img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/speedvisioncavalier/new%20sig.jpg"> </a><img src="http://www.precizion.org/animatedz.gif">
"What are we going to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, try to make the SVC go faster!"

I can agree with the gas grade thing, I have been putting 87 in my car and it gets great mileage, but lacks power. when I fill with a tank of premium, it's got good mileage and I notice a big power gain. I use the car to go to work, so it gets 87 during the week, and premium on the weekend.

what I meant by mid grade was not running race gas... 93 octane would be fine with me... I am gonna see if I can go yank that pulley off and what not. gonna check into a copper head gasket I plan on staying NA w/ nitrous


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH

if you stay around a 75 shot, you wont need a copper head gasket. a stocker will be fine. no need to waste money there.


.

<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/speedvisioncavalier"><img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/speedvisioncavalier/new%20sig.jpg"> </a><img src="http://www.precizion.org/animatedz.gif">
"What are we going to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, try to make the SVC go faster!"

Side question here, since I'm eventually going with an "086" head. Does anybody make headers that fit this head?


<img src=http://ourworld.cs.com/jwithspray/Nitrosig3137.JPG>

what chassis? 3rd gen Jbody? no, no one currently makes a header for a 2.3HO motor in a 3rd gen Jbody. there is now a header for the 89-94 L and N bodies with a 2.3HO (ie, the cars that came with them stock), and they are available from www.the-race-shop.com

i have that header, and its the first one made. it put down 171hp at the wheels with just the header and an intake on a 2.3HO motor.


.

<a href="http://www.j-body.org/members/speedvisioncavalier"><img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/speedvisioncavalier/new%20sig.jpg"> </a><img src="http://www.precizion.org/animatedz.gif">
"What are we going to do tonight?"
"The same thing we do every night, try to make the SVC go faster!"

What's the difference between the L and N bodies that it wouldn't fit in the J-body? Is it the steering rack?


<img src=http://ourworld.cs.com/jwithspray/Nitrosig3137.JPG>

so SVC, your trying to convince me that I can run a STOCK head gasket which will make my CR 11.2:1 (I have a 96 LD9) AND a 75 shot of nitous and be fine??? I dont really think that will be safe....

I am gonna call FEL-PRO on monday and find out if I can get a copper shim made up to put in between the headgasket. At work we stock the ones for the mustang 5.0 and Chevy 350 engines and they come in .020" thickness. This way I can use the stock gasket and raise it up another .020" or possibly .040" so I was thinking of a set up like this....

------------------------------------- <Copper shim
===================== <Head gasket
------------------------------------- <Copper shim

The number of shims that I use depends on the stock thickness of a Fel Pro Head gasket. Which gasket do I use by the way? Do I need to use the 2.3 or 2.4 gasket? And does anyone know the stock thickness of the Head Gasket.....


96 All motor 5 Speed Z24, Best time 15.97@86MPH