Has anyone here tried adding an electro synthesis system to the 2.4L engine for hydrogen/oxygen injection? I got okay results with a small test system injecting through the intake and I'm wondering if I should take the time to make a larger reaction chamber and permanently install it. Has anyone done this with the Z24 engine, and are there any long-term effects?
Thanks
- Ken
'99 Z24, Manual
I think this has gone on long enough.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=296931&t=296931
Here are a few facts about this. Not from someone who "thinks" they know what they are talking about, but rather from a former Hydrogen Vehicle Technician with Ford Motor Company---- me.
First, there is no such thing as a free lunch. The energy it takes to break down the water will always exceed the energy that will be made by turning it back into water.
This simply means that the amount of fuel (and hence horsepower) used to turn the alternator to generate the electricity that is used to break down the hydrogen in any "reaction chamber" will always be much greater than than amount of power you can make by burning it afterward. A purely hydrogen powered car works because this extra power comes from another source: powerplant, wind mill, hydroelectric dam, etc.
Second, as someone stated in the previous post, Hydrogen leaks through almost everything. So if you put a "reaction chamber" in your trunk. You will likely be leaking explosive hydrogen into your passenger compartment. What exactly is the "reaction chamber" made of? Anyone got a match?
Third, hydrogen is very explosive, and gasoline is less explosive. This has nothing to do with how much power it makes when it explodes. It only means one explodes easier than the other. Both gasoline and Hydrogen need Air (oxygen) to explode. Gasoline vapors will only explode when the concentration of it in air is 55% to 70% (approximately...I don't remember the exact
while Hydrogen will explode in concentrations of 4% to 80%. That has nothing to with the energy produced by the explosion because....
Fourth, Hydrogen has far less potential energy than Gasoline. The easiest example of this is comparing the operation of a gasoline only engine to a Hydrogen only engine.
A 2.0lt gasoline ford focus engine makes 130 hp in production trim. Converted to Hydrogen (I have built several of them) then engine must be supercharged to 45psi of boost to make 120hp. It simply takes that much greater volume of air and hydrogen to make the same amount of power.
Fifth, because it takes such a large volume of hydrogen to make the same power, you must store alot more hydrogen. For the focus mentioned earlier it takes a 25 cubic foot tank (think the size of your trunk) at 6000 psi to store enough hydrogen to drive 100 miles. How does this compare to the size and pressure of your "reaction chamber"? How fast does it produce how much hydrogen?
Sixth, If your engine is properly tuned, then the PCM is injecting exactly enough fuel to burn almost exactly all of the oxygen from the air that is entering the cylinder. So what is left for the Hydrogen to react (burn) with? Remember, Hydrogen does not release much energy, so it will take alot of hydrogen and alot of leftover air to see a change.
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I don't want to get into a pissing contest here, but...
"First, there is no such thing as a free lunch. The energy it takes to break down the water will always exceed the energy that will be made by turning it back into water."
This is not true if a catalyst is being used (around 1.3g battery acid per liter of water). Of course the physical setup of the chamber and voltage are factors too if you want to get the most out of your catalyst.
"This simply means that the amount of fuel (and hence horsepower) used to turn the alternator to generate the electricity that is used to break down the hydrogen in any "reaction chamber" will always be much greater than than amount of power you can make by burning it afterward."
Most alternator will handle it fine when the system is set up properly... and I never said I was using an alternator.
"Second, as someone stated in the previous post, Hydrogen leaks through almost everything. So if you put a "reaction chamber" in your trunk. You will likely be leaking explosive hydrogen into your passenger compartment. What exactly is the "reaction chamber" made of?"
Misc industrial pneumatic components. Water is pumped from a 2 gallon tank with each stroke of a spring-return metering solenoid. The electrolysis takes place in a tank made from PVC (aka "reaction chamber"). This tank has replaceable contacts in the form of plugs that are unscrewed and swapped out about every 3-4 tanks (due to corrosion from the acid). H2 + O2 exits through a single tube under light pressure to a fitting in the engine intake tube. The system does not leak. I know this because I performed a pressure test at 30 PSI.
"Fourth, Hydrogen has far less potential energy than Gasoline. The easiest example of this is comparing the operation of a gasoline only engine to a Hydrogen only engine.
A 2.0lt gasoline ford focus engine makes 130 hp in production trim. Converted to Hydrogen (I have built several of them) then engine must be supercharged to 45psi of boost to make 120hp. It simply takes that much greater volume of air and hydrogen to make the same amount of power."
Thank you for the info. Maybe the oxygen should be injected then and the hydrogen discarded? I've always wanted to try that and see if it's better then throwing the hydrogen in as well. It may not be enough oxygen to matter though.
"Fifth, because it takes such a large volume of hydrogen to make the same power, you must store alot more hydrogen. For the focus mentioned earlier it takes a 25 cubic foot tank (think the size of your trunk) at 6000 psi to store enough hydrogen to drive 100 miles. How does this compare to the size and pressure of your "reaction chamber"? How fast does it produce how much hydrogen?"
My 2 gallon tank can be completely converted in 15 minutes at the fastest. I PWM the circuit though to keep the corrosion of the electrodes down and it usually goes slower at around an hour per gallon. At this slow speed, I can ignite the end of the output tube and it produces the same effect as a propane torch. I know it would take a lot of hydrogen to run the entire engine, but this is only meant to increase gas mileage by substituting a small amount of engine displacement with the hydrogen.
"Sixth, If your engine is properly tuned, then the PCM is injecting exactly enough fuel to burn almost exactly all of the oxygen from the air that is entering the cylinder. So what is left for the Hydrogen to react (burn) with? Remember, Hydrogen does not release much energy, so it will take alot of hydrogen and alot of leftover air to see a change."
You answered half of this with your #3. Hydrogen will combust with smaller amounts of oxygen, and all the oxygen it needs is what came out with it from the electrolysis. You are right though, there may be some minor problems with the engine PCM, etc.
Personally, this is the system I had on my 97 Hyundai Elantra (I know Hyundais suck). I spent a huge amount of time working on it and it substantially boosted my gas mileage, especially "city" driving. I was averaging about 23 mpg without it and 36 mpg with it. As for HP, I didn't notice any difference. I put this on my Z24 last weekend just for kicks and it seemed to be working okay although I don't have enough data to prove anything yet.
Thanks for your comments. Any other info would be great.
'99 Z24, Manual
Now that I've clicked on that forum link.... my apologies for starting a new thread. I had searched for this a couple weeks ago and nothing existed at the time. Funny that someone else mentioned it at the same time.
'99 Z24, Manual
There is no pissing match.
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This is not true if a catalyst is being used (around 1.3g battery acid per liter of water). Of course the physical setup of the chamber and voltage are factors too if you want to get the most out of your catalyst.
This is very true no matter what the circumstances are.
If it wasn't true, then we could simply hook up a big version of this system to an engine and it could drive a generator that would sustain the reaction and then use the extra power to, maybe like, power a house. That would simply be a perpetual motion machine and that does not exist. Engine friction, alternator friction, wire resistance, and all the heat released by the components is the loss or use of energy that insures the process will use more energy than it produces.
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Most alternator will handle it fine when the system is set up properly... and I never said I was using an alternator.
Yes, the current used would be small and not much of a burden on an alternator, but it would still be an additional load on it. More load= more power required to turn the alternator.
Not using an alternator... well something would have to supply the electricity. It would have to be a battery or generator of some sort. A battery would have to be recharged (usually by and alternator) and a generator would have to be driven by something. That something would need to use some kind of energy (fuel) to spin it. If you are planning to recharge a battery by plugging it into the wall when your home, then the cost of electricity would have to be figured into your "mileage" gains.
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The electrolysis takes place in a tank made from PVC
Hydrogen does leak through PVC. Since hydrogen is the smallest molecule known, it simply slips through pretty much anything. Here's the test you would need to do to really know if it leaks: Pressurize your system to 30 psi with Hydrogen and seal it up. Come back 3 hours later and check to see if it is still at 30 psi. It won't be.
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Thank you for the info. Maybe the oxygen should be injected then and the hydrogen discarded? I've always wanted to try that and see if it's better then throwing the hydrogen in as well. It may not be enough oxygen to matter though.
It would be. It s the same principle behind using nitrous. Air is only 19% oxygen, Nitrous Oxide is 33% oxygen. Anytime you can increase the oxygen level you will increase power provided fuel is increased as well.
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Personally, this is the system I had on my 97 Hyundai Elantra (I know Hyundais suck). I spent a huge amount of time working on it and it substantially boosted my gas mileage, especially "city" driving. I was averaging about 23 mpg without it and 36 mpg
The EPA list 24/32mpg for a 97 Elantra.
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Damn enter key....
a 13 MPG improvement seems more than optimistic.
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first hyundias are good cars and second I'm not no where near capable of talking about hydrogen fuel... but LCC/MTec and UofM are supposed to be teaming together to build a hydrogen drag car, I'm not sure what stage they are at but i attended a few meetings. I was under the impression that hydrogen has to be under some large amount of pressure to stay int he liquid form. Really i just have a question is this was you guys are taking about or some sort of gasoline/hydrogen hybrid?
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