I do not currently have scans of the new dyno sheets, just give me some time.
I have two different numbers, with intake and without. With the intake is with the intake on, without the intake is with an open throttle body. I did the intake off just for @!#$s and giggles, it's also how I ran on the track last year.
Before cams and SAFC installed:
with intake: 145 (don't have exact number infront of me, this is about what it is)
without intake: 149.93
After cams and SAFC tuned:
with intake: 151.00
without 153.70
With the intake there is an approximate 6 wheel horse power gain. Less than half of the advertised 15 whp on a stock engine. I do not know how much of the gain was due to the SAFC and proper tuning. It was speculated at the shop that the cams were still somehow mistimed. With the side of the engine off to properly time everything, this is not possible. The other idea is that these cams need adjustable cam gears. Or maybe they'll work wonders with some forced induction. I also had a huge loss of torque.
Before cams: approx 148
after cams: approx 139
One up side is that the power was starting to top off after the redline. As in, the redline was hit and the car was still making power. Again, I'll get scans later, I worked last night and am too tired to mess with the scanner.
The entire graph is shifted down. Before the cams I would hit my peak hp at 5500rpm. With the cams it's possible that I do not hit the peak until after redline since it keeps going up. Only problem with that is:
5500rpm: 150whp (without intake, without cams)
5500rpm: 145whp (without intake, with cams)
To even reach the power I had before the cams, I have to go up to 5600/5700rpm
Another interesting thing about my car is that it was running rich. How rich? When I had the car stock I was getting around 400 miles to a tank. After the header, cams, exhaust, intake, and motor mounts I was getting 300 miles per tank. Not suprising is how my catalytic converter is fried right now.
I have the SAFC installed and it was tuned at the dyno. I do not know my current milage, but my car loves to be under 13.8 for a/f. If it gets leaned out more than that it starts to misfire. This could be the problem others are having with the cams. Normally when you do bolt ons and such it leans out the car... mine is just weird and went way rich.
How much of this 6whp gain is from the cams and how much is from the SAFC and how much from the cams? Clayton, with this, think we can get the specs for the cams now since my car is running properly. My car is tuned properly. And I'm not getting near the 15whp on a stock engine with just an intake as advertised.
Arnjolt wrote:I do not currently have scans of the new dyno sheets, just give me some time.
I have two different numbers, with intake and without. With the intake is with the intake on, without the intake is with an open throttle body. I did the intake off just for @!#$s and giggles, it's also how I ran on the track last year.
Before cams and SAFC installed:
with intake: 145 (don't have exact number infront of me, this is about what it is)
without intake: 149.93
After cams and SAFC tuned:
with intake: 151.00
without 153.70
With the intake there is an approximate 6 wheel horse power gain. Less than half of the advertised 15 whp on a stock engine. I do not know how much of the gain was due to the SAFC and proper tuning. It was speculated at the shop that the cams were still somehow mistimed. With the side of the engine off to properly time everything, this is not possible. The other idea is that these cams need adjustable cam gears. Or maybe they'll work wonders with some forced induction. I also had a huge loss of torque.
Before cams: approx 148
after cams: approx 139
One up side is that the power was starting to top off after the redline. As in, the redline was hit and the car was still making power. Again, I'll get scans later, I worked last night and am too tired to mess with the scanner.
The entire graph is shifted down. Before the cams I would hit my peak hp at 5500rpm. With the cams it's possible that I do not hit the peak until after redline since it keeps going up. Only problem with that is:
5500rpm: 150whp (without intake, without cams)
5500rpm: 145whp (without intake, with cams)
To even reach the power I had before the cams, I have to go up to 5600/5700rpm
Another interesting thing about my car is that it was running rich. How rich? When I had the car stock I was getting around 400 miles to a tank. After the header, cams, exhaust, intake, and motor mounts I was getting 300 miles per tank. Not suprising is how my catalytic converter is fried right now.
I have the SAFC installed and it was tuned at the dyno. I do not know my current milage, but my car loves to be under 13.8 for a/f. If it gets leaned out more than that it starts to misfire. This could be the problem others are having with the cams. Normally when you do bolt ons and such it leans out the car... mine is just weird and went way rich.
How much of this 6whp gain is from the cams and how much is from the SAFC and how much from the cams? Clayton, with this, think we can get the specs for the cams now since my car is running properly. My car is tuned properly. And I'm not getting near the 15whp on a stock engine with just an intake as advertised.
Clayton,
first i just wanted to tell you that i'm trying to send my cores back tomorrow and that the point of this is that i dont see 6whp and a ton of torque loss worth $440(without core charge). i paid 225 for my intake and probably got more hp and torque. this was a complete rip off!
i knew i lost torque, i feel it while i drive. the only time i feel torue is when i'm in a higher gear at low rpms and drop it down a gear. (only because i'm use to the pace i'm going) but even when i get on it from first gear i feel a little bit of torque and then i feel notihng after that. and 6whp and losing torque isnt what was shown to us.THAT IS FALSE ADVERTISEMENT if u refunded me the difference between 440 and 225 that would be better, but that doesnt make up for the robbed torque and lack of performance i'm getting and i cant get my old ones put back in b/c i spent all my money doing these ones that got me no where.
u also said u were gonna get back to me about the specs one night and didnt get back to me. that was like 3 days ago (could be two). it kinda seems like ur slowly trying to make ur way away from these problems and such. i probably am wrong but thats just my point of view.
MY 2003 SUNFIRE
Those cams are too aggresive.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Arnjolt - Your numbers aren't great but they don't sound like they are off by too much. With the header and exhaust your gains in theory would be less. Every mod you do isn't worth a set amount of hp becasue there are overlaps in the increase that are had. A few things jump out at me though.
1. the 13.8 af is a bit low compared to stock. These engine run something like 14.1-14.3 stock, so by running richer you are losing power. I'm not sure why you can't lean it out more, I havn't had a chance to get an safc installed and play with fuel tuning yet. Is this a 13.8 at idle or through the entire range? Remember becasue of the lope at idle the a/f is going to be off due to excess fuel escaping.
2. You said the power peaked after redline? Are you sure about this? It does sound like the cams are timed wrong going on that fact (and the loss in torque) but another possibility is that your combination of mods have moved the peak past redline. I'd triple check the cam timing, just becasue it is so easy to make a mistake and not know. You should be seeing power peak around 5300, if you are gaining past readline a set of adjustable gears could help you tune the power to a more usable range. Although if you are peaking that late you might be get away with tuning it using the stock gears. I'd love to see an a/f print out and your dyno reports. I think you have at least 6-10 hp that you can find with more tuning. It really sounds like your bower band has been moved up 500-600 rpm.
Out of curiosity what gear were the pulls done in?
Quote:
think we can get the specs for the cams now
Sorry for the delay on these. I actually meant to give them to everyone a week ago but I misplaced the info, I had put it in my wallet and forgot about it.
The specs on the cams are:
int: 263*, 394
exh: 260*, 394
As you'll see the lift really isn't that extreme, but the duration is. The reason for this is to help cut down on the lope by increasing the vacum.
Ohh3SunFire - I have to run out to a doctors appointment right now but I will reply to you email that you sent today.
What are the specs on the stock cams?????
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
dont know about the sotck specs but i found a few other sets around.
these are the gm cams specs
Duration @ .050 - Intake 268 Exhauset 268
Lift - Intake .464" Exhaust .464"
these are the crane cams specs
Range Idle to 6500 RPM's
Intake Duration 201@006 Lift .440 inch
Exhaust Duration 197@006 Lift .428 inch
Those Level Zero cams would probably make good power............................at 9000rpm.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
When the a/f was leaned out even more the engine started to misfire at higher RPMs. This was tested and tuned on the dyno. Once it started to go beyond the 13.8 the car was not running happy. You can say that they run at X value for a/f but mine seems to be an exception. It did not lean out when adding on bolt ones, it became richer.
The cams were not installed incorrectly. The timing is correct. I am saying that the power is peaking at or after the rev limiter. This is beacuse the hp was just starting to level out. It was either just hitting it's peak or just about to hit it's peak. The power is not peaking around 5300, it's still going up, if anything it's nearly peaking at 6300 or so.
I'll call the shop tomorrow to see if I can get a printout of the a/f, also it was dynoed in 3rd gear.
So how are these cams going to fair with boost and a pnp head? Considering the power if fairly useless that close to the rev limiter would just upping that help? How high can the ecotec safely go?
Considering the cost, I do not want to just give up on these even though I'm quite disappointed so far.
(dyno sheet to be put up in the next hour or so)
Arnjolt wrote:
Considering the cost, I do not want to just give up on these even though I'm quite disappointed so far.
I'm starting to feel the same
I feel sorry for you, Darkstars, and for QBE as well. I haven't had nearly the problems you have had. And as far as I know, nothing has been solved.
The light blue line is the current HP, the black line is the previous hp. Huge difference.
Arnjolt wrote:When the a/f was leaned out even more the engine started to misfire at higher RPMs. This was tested and tuned on the dyno. Once it started to go beyond the 13.8 the car was not running happy. You can say that they run at X value for a/f but mine seems to be an exception. It did not lean out when adding on bolt ones, it became richer.
The cams were not installed incorrectly. The timing is correct. I am saying that the power is peaking at or after the rev limiter. This is beacuse the hp was just starting to level out. It was either just hitting it's peak or just about to hit it's peak. The power is not peaking around 5300, it's still going up, if anything it's nearly peaking at 6300 or so.
I'll call the shop tomorrow to see if I can get a printout of the a/f, also it was dynoed in 3rd gear.
So how are these cams going to fair with boost and a pnp head? Considering the power if fairly useless that close to the rev limiter would just upping that help? How high can the ecotec safely go?
Considering the cost, I do not want to just give up on these even though I'm quite disappointed so far.
(dyno sheet to be put up in the next hour or so)
Was this A/F ratio at WOT?. If you are running leaner than 13:1 to 13.2:1 at Wot then you will get misfires.. the engine should be running between 12:1 and 13:1 at WOT. If you are running leaner than 13:1 I would be checking your exhaust temps...as the leaner you go the hotter they get..I have found that at WOT you have to run extremely rich before you will loose power...just ask the forced induction guys.. they run rich best torque...this is so you don't fry your exhaust valves or maybe a piston...my 2c
oh well, I'll throw in my story since this is THE thread for levelzero motorsports cams:
I have had problems getting these cams installed because my friggin' mechanic was used to honda's and obviously`gm engines aren't the same, shouldn't have had him install them. He bent a valve and made a hole in the piston by not timing them correctly and then not verifying his timing.
Anyway, after he repaired everything and put the cams in, I had an instant CEL which was far more often on than off, even though the rest of the engine is completely stock. I also felt a loss in torque and found that somehow I had power near the redline but not much before that.
Well, as my luck turns out, my mechanic probably couldn't install them right after all, because under 3k kilos my engine lost all its oil and fried the engine. I was DAMN lucky to have the dealer replace the engine with a brand new one under warranty, they never found out about the aftermarket cams and just replaced the engine. Now I'm back to stock, and with 700 $ CAD used for nothing, but at least I don't have the same problems as you guys.
This totally sucks, but I guess I'm lucky to have the stock cams back in.
i go a cel with these again. it seems like i only get it when its cold out and i am babying the car. if its warm and i run the snot out of it i get no light. well thats the way it seems
I've still got my stock cams. Depending upon how useful these are going to be with boost will determine what I'll do with them.
Well, Livid, since so many gave it a chance and the numbers you posted are nowhere near what they should be with proper installation, are you going to offer the chance for us to return them or some other form of compensation?
this is from your first post in the GP:
Quote:
The dyno reported these cams creating an additions 15whp over stock, with no bottom end losses. These cams do not set a check engine light and will be ready to install as soon as you recieve them.
Ask Darkstars, QBE, Ohh3SunFire, and I'm sure several others about their check engine lights. What do you mean no bottom end losses? 15whp gain? Nope, not seeing that either. The pics of the dyno sheets are down as well.
Quote:
Those cams are too aggresive.
They do appear to be to aggressive for these cars. The problem is that they run happy in about %40 of the cars, in the other %60 they set lights and the car goes into linp mode. There is no rhyme or reason to which cars like them and which don't. This profile is tame relative to what we've been able to do in alot of other cars.
Quote:
It did not lean out when adding on bolt ones, it became richer.
I've noticed this on my car too.
Quote:
The cams were not installed incorrectly. The timing is correct. I am saying that the power is peaking at or after the rev limiter. This is beacuse the hp was just starting to level out. It was either just hitting it's peak or just about to hit it's peak. The power is not peaking around 5300, it's still going up, if anything it's nearly peaking at 6300 or so.
I looked at your dyno sheet and you are totally right. The problem is that it's not the cams that are making you power band so late. It could be the cam timing although I believe you when you say they are installed right. It can also be the combination of your mods, cams included. The shape of you hp curve is as it should be, but it's 500 rpm to late. If you move the hp curve 500 rpm earlier and extend the curve it looks exactly as it should and makes the extra 7-8 whp you are expecting. The power is there it's just not where you need it.
Quote:
So how are these cams going to fair with boost and a pnp head? [/qupte]
This cams will be great for boost if they are timed with adjustable gears. For a boosted car you need to reduce the overlap. On a boosted car the overlap causes the intake charge to be blown out the exhaust side.
As for with a port and polished head, i would expect you to see more power but still have the same problems. Truthfully chances are if you went with an agressive port job and oversized valves, with stock cams you could still have the same problems. The reduced vacum at idle casues the lope and the rich conditions. The ecu is not very forgiving and the slightest.
Quote:
How high can the ecotec safely go?
Not too sure but i'm sure it's covered in the ecotec buildup.
Ok just to bring everyone upto speed on what we have been working on. Becasue my car is one of the ones that is problematic we have been trying out various profiles. We have tried a few different ones and although one set causes the light to come on less often (I still need to check what code they throw) nothing we have done to the profile will make my car run happy.
We are beginning to move forward with plan B. Actually I think it's more like plan K but whatever. I am working with one of my partners to basically design a box that plugs into you obd2 port and as soon as it sees a certain code it clears it from the ecu. This means the car will never go into limp mode, and the cel only comes on if the ecu sees a code other then the ones we are looking for. This isn't an ideal solution but it's becoming what we are left with in order to run any sort of agressive cam. We have learnt the hard way why no one wants to offer bigger cams for these engine.
Something just popped into me head. Does anyone know if the sunfire gt's have a different ecu flash then the non gt's? or the cavies?
I don't know when our little gizmo will be ready or if it will work, it's just another idea in a long list that we are trying in order to allow everyone to run more extensive mods. If this gizmo works it could actually help alot of people out.
Has anyone considered a vacum reserve canister? We tossed the idea around but never got to try it,
On a side note, the other night when I was doing one of the many cam swaps in my car, I was half asleep and installed the cams with the intake advanced 2 teeth (one full link). The car stared no problem, idle was lumpy but it didn't stall out or anything. Power was ok but it only had a little more top end then just an intake and muffler. But that was two teeth, which is something like 14*'s. Goes to show you that the timing can be out to lunch and the car will run, just not happy.
DanteMustDie - Damn that sucks. We have actually seen a few engines like this. That and snapped timing chains.
Quote:
are you going to offer the chance for us to return them or some other form of compensation?
Right now we are still trying to find a solution. We will continue to do our best to help everyone but truthfully we have already lost money on the gp with all the extra time and resources we had to ecpend in trying to resolve these issues. Refunds aren't really an option and if we were to go that route we would have to close shop, which is not what we want to do. I understand how frustrated everyone is but trust me this is not our idea of a good time either. Our stress and frustration is multiplied by every person that is having problems.
Quote:
The pics of the dyno sheets are down as well.
Sorry new web design moved things around.
http://www.levelzeromotorsports.com/images/cs001_dyno1.jpg
http://www.levelzeromotorsports.com/images/cs001_dyno2.jpg
does any one realize that bigger cams change the power band ???
they either go up or go down , from stock
welcome to the wonderful life of cam shafts
Okay, no refunds. Then what can you, as a business or the owner, do for those of us with problems. I've had the car dynoed twice.
First time the problem was identified and it was fixed. Second time with the cams timed correctly I have only gotten at most 6whp and the gain only appears AFTER 5700rpm or so. You advertised 15whp across the board.
You reported no bottom end losses... I've got proof that there is no gain until after the hp peak before the new cams were installed.
You said the cams do not throw codes, yet at least three I have already named as those with major problems from the cams.
Sorry if I'm coming across as an @$$, but try to put yourself in the position of your customers. Imagine if you were told, "I've got proof that this product can do X, Y, Z!" You buy it, try it out, and for the most part it's a lie and does not perform as promised. Would you be happy with it, especially if it cost several hundred dollars? I spent nearly $700 overall and for this, I'm not happy.
LIVID- You say 40% of the cars are fine and 60% have problems
Quote:
The problem is that they run happy in about %40 of the cars, in the other %60 they set lights and the car goes into linp mode.
Darkstars, QBE, Ohh3SunFire, and Arnolt =4cars
and yours...
Quote:
Ok just to bring everyone upto speed on what we have been working on. Becasue my car is one of the ones that is problematic we have been trying out various profiles. We have tried a few different ones and although one set causes the light to come on less often (I still need to check what code they throw) nothing we have done to the profile will make my car run happy.
Makes 5 cars.
5 is approxmately 60% of 8.
Can you show me 3 cars that are making 15 more hp and are experiencing no problems?
Anyone who wants to see my true opinion about this can see it on my club's forum in the Performance section.
sig not found
You are kind of talking like a kid Arnjolt, no offense.
Welcome to the world of racing and blowing money left and right first of all.
Second: This guy that sold you the cams is not a dick, as other people can be and just blow you off.
He can simply say that HIS car didn't experience and of these problems and he can lie for all you know and there is his justifiable excuse.
At least he has balls to post here after everyone is etting on him.
I was a Guinea Pig many times from all the damn motor swaps I did and all the other crap, but that's the name of the game and if you don't like it you should have bought a Honda. No offense to Honda drivers, it is just the fact that there is everything avalibale to them tunning wise.
I was told the it will be slightly harder to tune a high compression Turbo motor then a low compression Turbo motor, and I was a fool for listening, but what am I suposse to do blame other people that thought so.
Noone gives a rats ass.
After over $2000 that I spent I couldn't even run like 7-8 PSI with out problems and outrageous EGT's and stuff. So consider yourself lucky that you have only spent $700.
I mean, you are trying to imply that you spent all this money to TEST HIS CAMS, but you didn't, you spent the money to get your car to run faster and all the dyno time was totally on you, noone put a gun to your head.
As I was saying, these guys didn't mean for this to happen he just tried to make something for us performance wise, who knew it was gonna end up like this.
BTW, you are constantly asking about some kind of REFUND or something like that, but who is going to give him a rufund for GETTING INTO A WRONG PART OF A RACING WORLD(J bodies)
.
Everyone wants a damn compensation of some kind, yea I wish I get some free money, for all the mods that I put on MY CAR, and the people that told me IT WAS GONNA BE OK, if they gave me 20% back I would be $10,000 richer, but it is not an option, you take risk playing this damn game.
Best time:"""11.946""" @ 114.73 mph @17psi 1.83--60"
11 second daily driver!!!!
Race Related 727-561-9440
Shop of choice for your 11 second J body!
Also, built bottom end and or top end LSJ and L61's available.
13's
----12's
----11's
----10's
I actually spent the money to have the grind done on blanks which was more expensive then a regrind and I had to buy the blanks, I'm just glad I still have my stock cams sitting here
by the way the performance of my car with them, it shances preaty daily, I was driving aorund with Cheesecakes can tool in my car I was clearing codes roughly twice a day, usually my car my feels very slow and slugish but on ocassion I'll get it on and the car will pull like mad. Today during lunch I filled my gas tank, I've put maybe 30-40 miles on my car since then and I've used just a tiny bit under 1/4 tank of gas already. Simply put its not worth the headaches to have the car make power for like 1/2 a day once every 2 weeks or so, have to clear lights multiple times a day, and still go through more gas then a V8. And the plug in box that you guys are working on.... personally i don't think thats good enough, especially when were told NO CEL's, with that box hooked up there car will NEVER pass emesions, everytime you clear codes its resets the I/M rediness monitors, when you take emisions they check for codes and I/M rediness monitors, even with no codes it usually take at least a day usually more for the rediness monitors to reset which will cause the car to throw a code by then. Going form no codes to the car cannot possibly pass emisions is a big difference. The only thing I can think of to try is stronger igntion and the JBP reflash (they make stage 2 cams, have them reflash it for there cams + mods) neither of which I can afford to just buy and hope for the best, especially when I'm paying like $35 a week in gas.
look at the power band
i would say cam timing for sure. the torque curve is not right look at that dip
that is a big dip. adjustable cam gears and a few hours tuning it on the dyno should fix that.
I wounder why is the intake side duration 263 and the exhaust 260. that will loose a bit of vac.
hell i have no idea what i am talking about.
see ya!
