JBOM had a dyno session today at monkey wrench racing and I wanted some base numbers for the cavy. I'm pleased with the numbers though, especially for a stock car.
Stock no changes = 133whp
Intake removed from the throttle body = 140 whp
Pretty good gain all across the rpm band, Thanks GM for making such a restrictive intake
Dotted lines are the completly stock run, solid is with the intake removed.
Enjoy
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12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
Wow... Guess I need to get rid of that intake ASAP. <br>
Whoever said that nothing is impossible has never tried to slam a revolving door.
Of course its restrictive, its a economy car meant for gas mileage not performance. On the otherhand with the stock intake the torque curve is lower down than with a aftermarket one, and with no intake your torque goes out the window <br>
If it doesnt blow it sucks
i think thats part why its called stock and not performance intake
just messin man
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yes, but doesn't that mean your intake air has no filtration? or did you put a cai on it, and then redyno it? <br>
good work jon! now make some power so you can hang in autox next year
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see ya!
something else to MAYBE factor....
stock filters are not the greatest flowing ordeal and being its a 2002, clogged dirty...
we all know dirty filters flow less air, and stock filters def flow less than an K&N or similar stock replacement....
just some other thoughts on this... <br>
Well I actually did 3 pulls.....
The first one was stock which yielded 133whp
The second pull I disconnected the s-tube from the air box/filter and gained about 4 or 5whp over stock.
The third run I disconnected the box on the throttle body and left it completly open which gave me another 7whp over stock.
The post was mainly meant to be funny, I just didn't expect those kinds of gains just from removing the intake.
Silversun... without the intake where did my torque go out the window? I lost a lil for one very small point, everywhere else was a gain. Same goes for HP...even down low in the rpm band. <br>
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
Its nice to see the numbers Jon. It definitely would have been nice to compare it with a K & N, or a performance intake though. Now you need to blog this :-)
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Josh Pollard
http://josh.glmotorsports.net
Airtonics wrote:Well I actually did 3 pulls.....
The first one was stock which yielded 133whp
The second pull I disconnected the s-tube from the air box/filter and gained about 4 or 5whp over stock.
The third run I disconnected the box on the throttle body and left it completly open which gave me another 7whp over stock.
The post was mainly meant to be funny, I just didn't expect those kinds of gains just from removing the intake.
Silversun... without the intake where did my torque go out the window? I lost a lil for one very small point, everywhere else was a gain. Same goes for HP...even down low in the rpm band.
hey let me know if you want to try a fresh set of plugs because i got a set for ya!
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see ya!
I did this same thing a couple years ago and gained nearly 10 hp on my 2.4L from running open with no filtration.
It's a pointless exercise but good for some giggles.
At the time, I believe I dynoed a 3 hp gain from a drop-in K&N filter as well.
You should also note that these sorts of tests can be inaccurate because the ECU hasn't had a chance to properly adjust for the difference in airflow when you're doing the test. Optimally, you'd want to drive around for a half hour or so between runs so it can learn the new conditions. Of course, doing this with an open TB would be stupid.
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yes but you have to figure you cant drive around without any type of filter on there.. unless you want to do some nice damage to your motor from sucking in random things <br>
"Theres a time in every mans life where he hits a cross roads and...wait...are you wearing panties?"
Wild Weasel wrote:I did this same thing a couple years ago and gained nearly 10 hp on my 2.4L from running open with no filtration.
It's a pointless exercise but good for some giggles.
At the time, I believe I dynoed a 3 hp gain from a drop-in K&N filter as well.
You should also note that these sorts of tests can be inaccurate because the ECU hasn't had a chance to properly adjust for the difference in airflow when you're doing the test. Optimally, you'd want to drive around for a half hour or so between runs so it can learn the new conditions. Of course, doing this with an open TB would be stupid.
No offense WW, this is a common myth.
The ECU doesn't "learn" anything. Driving around won't make it any different than when you first start it up with a new mod. Think about it, when you upgrade the RAM in your computer, does it take your computer a half hour or so to "learn" how to use it? No.
ECU's work based on tables. Tables programmed in by GM a long time ago. They say for X amount of air, and X RPM, you need X amount of fuel. After the ECU goes into a closed loop operation (after the O2 sensor is warm), the ONLY thing that the ECU is doing is adjusting the fuel based on what the O2 sensor reads. If it is reading lean, it adds more fuel, if it is reading rich, it takes out fuel. Its doing this hundreds of times per second (which is why A/F gauges bounce).
So, when you add a new filter, an intake, new cams, whatever, the ECU doesn't relearn anything. The tables are static. The sensors are there to make sure things happen when they should, and to advise the computer when there might be a problem.
Just trying to put a myth to rest
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4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
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Clarification: Only thing the ECU is doing during a closed loop operation in reference to fuel is looking at the O2 sensor. The ECU is also controling spark advance, which is also based on tables.
The ECU's in our cars have the computer power rivaling that of a really good engineering calculator. I think they are 20mhz max. They couldn't create tables on the fly and control your car hundreds of times per second. Thats why they use static tables, and thats why the turbo guys are having issues when the computer starts seeing boost, it just doesn't have the tables to support the air, and it goes into a limp mode.
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The ECU is a constantly learning computer. It learns as you go and changes on the fly.
I just realized that this also proves to you knuckleheads that "intake velocity" doesn't matter on the intake tubes....
He is running WITHOUT an intake. This is like having an aftermarket intake with an infinite diameter....
Wow, look at his torque and hp gains. Myth put to rest. So stfu about intake velocity on the intake. K thnx
The ECU doesn't learn anything, or change anything, it uses settings found in tables, static tables that are hard coded in. It just reads from different parts of the table based on what the sensors are telling it, air temp, how much air, what the oxygen content of the exhaust is, etc.
Resetting the ECU, unplugging the battery, driving around for a period of time really doesn't do anything.
<br>
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Torque Monster wrote:I just realized that this also proves to you knuckleheads that "intake velocity" doesn't matter on the intake tubes....
He is running WITHOUT an intake. This is like having an aftermarket intake with an infinite diameter....
Wow, look at his torque and hp gains. Myth put to rest. So stfu about intake velocity on the intake. K thnx
Actually, it doesn't prove that. He removed a restrictive intake, so the intake velocity was probably higher. Add a tube to that and the intake velocity will probably slow down. If he had put an intake on it, I bet the torque and hp would be lower since the filter and bends in the tube slow the intake air. The tb was sucking right from the atmosphere, so the intake velocity wasn't going to get any higher than that.
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hmmm anyone tried taking off the intake and making a run down the 1/4???
or is it not worth the risk <br>
97cavy I did at the 02 bash and lost 2 tenths over my rpevious runs, this could be due to a bad launch, I lost to inky on that run LOL
those numbers put mine to shame ouch! <br>
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
I can vouch for ECU's learning with my cams... I have seen more power every once in a while and my friend can vouch for that too, and the fact that my CEL's get less and less...
this was posted by livid
Sorry for the delay, I was sidetracked yesturday dealing with shipping and paperwork.
Basically in an OBD2 car the computer learns. OBD2 cars have a learning factor of plus/minus 25%. It performs short term and long term checks to make sure the engine is running optimally. The computer will compensate and adapt as time goes on to try and keep the engine running it's best. It also compensates for you driving style, this is really noticable in an automatic. When you add something to the car (like cams) you change the way the engine is running. The computer sees these changes and if they are not within an allowable range it will set a code. The computer continues to monitor things and if things seem to be fine it will update itself to allow the the new values, and clear the code. This is a bit hard to explain but I will try to use the cams as an example.
When you install the cams you are allowing the engine to breath better, more air means more fuel. The ecu will see all this extra fuel (short term tests), especially at idle where the car is running rich and if there is too much raw fuel coming out of the exhaust it will set a code. This is what we have seen in 1-2 of the cars with heavier mods. The computer keeps doing it's thing, and if it determines that running richer then it was before is actually ok, it will clear the code. It might do this a few times before it determines that the engine is running ok (long term testing), once the ecu can do this it will update it's values to allow the new range and not set the code anymore. You cars computer doesn't understand that you put bigger cams in, it just understands it is seeing more air.
What does this mean for you .... not much really. You car will do this on it's own, and as it learns what the new version of normal is, it will update. Your car is programmed to run rich to be safe, as it learns it will try to lean out. This will improve fuel economy and make more power. These are all very small changes though, you might feel a little more power, and you might see a bit better fuel economy if you comapre next week to this week. You might not notice a thing.
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LE61T PTE6262 Powered
QBE-
I'm not sure, I have a really hard time believing that, here's my reasons:
Why would the engine care about your driving habits or engine mods? It should only care about what the sensors are telling it right now, at that very moment. It doesn't care what happend half an hour ago, or what will happen half an hour from now, it only cares what it sees at this very moment.
I can't see the computer building new tables everytime you add a mod. The most expensive stand alone systems won't even do that. If the computer could learn and adapt to mods, then why is it so hard to turbo a car with the stock ECU. We can't just throw on a 2 bar map sensor and let the computer build new tables, it simply doesn't work.
Not to mention the computer doesn't have the computing power to learn. Its a 20mhz overly complicated calculator. It reads tables, controls fuel injectors, and spark timing, based on sensor input. When would it find the time to generate new tables, learn driving habits, and store previous information? Its got enough memory for the fuel and spark tables, and whatever other tables it needs, and thats about it.
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i can see where youre both coming from, but I noticed that driving right after the cams were installed I noticed no power gain, after a few hrs the next day I noticed a big gain... I think he is right... those sensors are telling it new info with every mod, so thus it must chance to keep the engine running in it's peak condition <br>
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
Running open like this (no filter) is not as big a deal as a lot of people think. When my buddy and I brought his MR2 home from Maryland to NY, it was open filter (don't ask.) When I almost hydro-locked my motor last year, I brought it home open-filter to repair a blown apart starter which happened when I was trying to get the engine to turn back over.
It's no the BEST idea in the world, but you're not gonna blow anything by doing it once in a while. <br>
