Has anyone on JBO considered or tried custom making a chain drive system to replace the belt/pulleys that the engine uses? I know they use this on drag cars and some high performance sports cars. I wouldnt think making the toothed gears would be to difficult for a compitent machinest, it would allow for better torque transfer and in the case of a supercharger, if the pulley was also converted there would be no slipping with a tiny pulley
I don't think anybody has had issues with belt slippage and superchargers. The only reason the drag cars need chain drives is because they rev to 10,000 rpm instantly. The amount of torque that our engines output will never reach the point that we need to convert to a chain drive using a supercharger. Which is why most 4 cylinder drag cars don't use superchargers, they use turbochargers.
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well on the 2.2, i looked into having the machine shop take out the timing chain system and install to idler gears to make the crank to cam gears a direct drive type ordeal, but then again cost and all...
but who knows i still have the idea on the table <br>
actually would thing be a GEAR DRIVE instead of a chain drive, since we already have chains now?
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right...and I like that idler idea Event...but yeah that would be pricey. Sure would solve that tensioner noise problem too...the one where im about to kill myself b/c it's annoying as hell and I don't feel like fixing it cuz it will just go bad again....ok done ranting...sorry
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well heres something for discussion....
was at the machine shop today and they said the main problem ever seen with these gear setups are the noise....
the noise of the gears sound cool, so thats not the problem...
but the knock sensors.....
on some cars, mostly newer, the noise is enough from it that it echoes through the water jackets enough to set off the knock sensors hence causing the car to retard itself....
i have the opportunity to get one on my car, thats not the problem, only thing is, i'd have to some how find out, how sensitive the knock sensor is/via the block.
i dont mind paying for this, as its supposedly way better than the chain issue as they stretch over time and always have a bit of play in em, a bit more than a gear setup.... although everything gear or chain driven will have some free lash in it... <br>
event...was the machine shop gonna make all the parts? or use existing ones for other models. I've been workin with this on and off for almost a year, but keep running into a few snags. If u could share any info, thatd be cool, if not, i understand
nah its cool Russ, i have nothing to hide....
the first idea was to use existing parts from one of the companies listed in the summit racing catlogues....
just as long as the gear pitch is the same size.... machining the block shouldnt be hard at all. just machine it, get an arp bolt/stud...go from there....
if need be, then have 2 small gears machined somewhere if the pitch is different....
basically the first choice was the pete jackson one.... thats what they install most time at the shop on the big and small blocks.... also works with the distrib for those....
second choice was the edlebrock version of it....
they have single gear ones, but the dual gear seems a bit more "sturdy" cause if one gear micheiviously goes off from damage, you still have that other gear, also it just seems more smoother a design.
like said, its still an option and something i am looking at , but the main hold back is how sensitive is the knock sensor and how much reverberance goes throuhg the block and water jackets?
thats prob the main issue out of all of it
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I just wanted to bring this back from the dead...event? russ? anyone ever get around to some more research into this? or is it a lost cause? what kind of $$$ were you looking at with these projects?
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-Josh
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only thing we came up with was the oiling and the noise.
the constant vibes of todays engines could have actually set off the knock sensor. so for me thats why i scrapped the idea for now. on older cars like muscle car v8's i dont believe many had as sensitive of a knock sensor or at all from what chris at ahm was saying.
there was the option of making the sensor NOT as sensitve, maybe with resistors, etc or something. but then again the drawback would have been will it register if and when knock does occur.
wouldnt say lost cause, but just something that needs a bit more looking into.
ok, i might be misunderstanding this but i think the first guy is talking about converting the serpentine belt to a chain drive, and the other guys are talking about changing the timing chain to a gear drive.
seems like a chain drive serpentine "system" would weigh enough to put excessive drag on the crank and take away power.
then again, the same is probably true for a gear drive valvetrain, would definatly be different, if i were to go about doing this, i would check out how the iron dukes / tec-4s knock sensors or other type of knock control worked. it seems like that's the only engine in the computer age to have a gear drive.
hope any of this helps.
CAR GODS MADE THE 1.6 SOHC TO MAKE US 2.2 OHV GUYS FEEL BETTER.
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:only thing we came up with was the oiling and the noise.
the constant vibes of todays engines could have actually set off the knock sensor. so for me thats why i scrapped the idea for now. on older cars like muscle car v8's i dont believe many had as sensitive of a knock sensor or at all from what chris at ahm was saying.
there was the option of making the sensor NOT as sensitve, maybe with resistors, etc or something. but then again the drawback would have been will it register if and when knock does occur.
wouldnt say lost cause, but just something that needs a bit more looking into.
what about removing the knock sensor all together? obviously it's there for a reason, but with a very well-maintained, well-regulated, well-tuned, and well-monitored engine I would think it could be omitted (with risk of course). Is there anything that would cause knock besides pre-ignition or detenation?
chapter10 wrote:ok, i might be misunderstanding this but i think the first guy is talking about converting the serpentine belt to a chain drive, and the other guys are talking about changing the timing chain to a gear drive.
seems like a chain drive serpentine "system" would weigh enough to put excessive drag on the crank and take away power.
then again, the same is probably true for a gear drive valvetrain, would definatly be different, if i were to go about doing this, i would check out how the iron dukes / tec-4s knock sensors or other type of knock control worked. it seems like that's the only engine in the computer age to have a gear drive.
hope any of this helps.
Yeah, I think they were first talking about the DOHCs belt drive being converted, but I don't care about them
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-Josh
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Whew, that makes more sense. yeah, it's definatly been done (chain drive DOHC valvetrain) frind of mine form tech school had a HO Quad, shaved the head .010, had a chain drive and somehow used toronado axles.
CAR GODS MADE THE 1.6 SOHC TO MAKE US 2.2 OHV GUYS FEEL BETTER.
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:nah its cool Russ, i have nothing to hide....
the first idea was to use existing parts from one of the companies listed in the summit racing catlogues....
just as long as the gear pitch is the same size.... machining the block shouldnt be hard at all. just machine it, get an arp bolt/stud...go from there....
if need be, then have 2 small gears machined somewhere if the pitch is different....
basically the first choice was the pete jackson one.... thats what they install most time at the shop on the big and small blocks.... also works with the distrib for those....
second choice was the edlebrock version of it....
they have single gear ones, but the dual gear seems a bit more "sturdy" cause if one gear micheiviously goes off from damage, you still have that other gear, also it just seems more smoother a design.
like said, its still an option and something i am looking at , but the main hold back is how sensitive is the knock sensor and how much reverberance goes throuhg the block and water jackets?
thats prob the main issue out of all of it
The type of gear drive also makes a difference. the Edelbrock uses a pair of floating gears, one on each side of the crank and cam gears. These are not as accurate as fixed idler gear drives, though stronger and more accurate than chain drives. They also make more noise that the knock sensor would pick up.
The fixed idler gear drives, such as the Milodon set, are the most accurate, reliable and make less noise than the floating idler sets, but can still trigger knock sensors, though not as much as floaters. They are also more expensive and require more machine work to install.
Belt drives are, actually the most commonly used system on most race engines today. The after-market sets are just as accurate as gear dives and cost less in parasitic power loss. They also absorb any crank shaft harmonics that could damage the valve train. The belts used in these systems are also much more stronger compared to stock belts. I doubt any of these belt drive could be reasonably be made to work with our motors.
The original 1.8L, from which the 2.0L and 2.2L motors were derived from, came with a true roller timing chain. This chain was much stronger, resisted stretch and caused less parasitic power loss than the current chain drive used today. Unforunately all manufacturers discontinued them a number of years ago, since they wre only used for one year, in 1982. Those chains did exhibit a small amount of "chain slap", which could trigger knock sensors, though not as nearly as much as either of the gear drive sets. A small amount of thread sealant on the knock sensor was enough to dull the noise from these chains to operate properly with-out retarding the ignition timing.
Unfortunitely, this leaves us with the stock replacement timing sets, unless you want to do some major custom machine work.
I do like the fact that people are working hard at some new ideas! Event you have help alot, with all the work you have done and sharing it on the JBO! Keep up the good work.
...Prz <br> 
