Hello all
It's that time of the year again I suppose, and my car wants a little extra attention.
1995 2.2L Manual 150K miles.
Starts perfectly, Idles just right. Shifts into and out of gear correctly (and it should, replaced full clutch assembly march 2005). What it doesn’t so, both in gear and in neutral....is accelerate.
Here is the exact situation:
Start car - starts then idles as normal.
Press gas pedal half way slowly then hold - engine rev increases until pedal reaches 1/3 depressed position then rpm's begin to slow gradually. If the pedal is held at this position the engine will slow to the point of stop and turn off / die. If the gas pedal is depressed all the way to WOT the rpms will decrease rapidly to a stalled state and the motor turns off / dies.
Alternate method:
Start car - starts then idles as normal.
Press gas pedal quickly to WOT and hold @ WOT - engine rapidly looses rpm's and sputters once at the lowest rpm range of operation to a stall / stop. Engine dies.
2nd alternate method:
Start car - starts then idles as normal.
Press gas pedal quickly to WOT and then immediately release completely - burps, then rapidly looses rpms then (once the gas pedal is completely released) returns to regular idle.
To me, this obviously seems like a fuel supply issue. I've checked the fuel rail and injector positions visually and notice that injector #3 (looking at motor from front of car - third to the right, one from the fuel pressure regulator) is covered in a dampness of gas. While running / idling, the engine compartment does smell of gas, but the injector in question is not visibly spitting so whatever type of leak there is must be very small or slow. Again, I can see that the area of and around that injector is wet with gas, but not dripping – moist would be a better description.
That said - what is causing the leak? Is the leak responsible for the inability of the engine to increase and hold RPM? Is the leak creating a loss of fuel pressure to such a degree that all four injectors are unable to get the gas needed to operate each piston correctly? I ask this because the engine it's self runs very smoothly - particularly during the loss of rpm while the gas pedal is being depressed - exactly the opposite of how an engine that is missing one cylinder behaves. When your missing a cylinder normally an engine bucks and shakes and stutters violently - but still runs (to a much less productive degree of course).
In my case, the engine rpms seems to be slowed in a controlled manner - as if the action of depressing the gas pedal actually does the opposite of what its purpose is - reducing the engine rpm instead of increasing it. And it does this very smoothly, without the regular bucking and shaking of a lost cylinder as I’d mentioned before.
So - I think that is as good as I can explain the situation. All help and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I will be doing all of the work required on this myself so extra comments concerning special tools, troublesome nuts and bolts to remove or be aware of while working with these components or any other such comments will be doubly appreciated!
I also have the 3 book GM shop manual set for the J-Body (addendum included) so if anyone else out there who owns them and has a fix suggestion would like to reference a page or diagram - please do and I'll follow along.
Thank you again in advance.
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inthemeantime. . .
EASY!!!
CLRH2O (Clearwater)
Label Manager / Producer / DJ
FORCE RECORDINGS
www.forcerecordings.com
www.clrh2ostudios.com
www.hallucination.com
fuel pump. Or atleast sounds like it.
Is it possible for this to be the fuel pump yet still have unaffected idle? I can start the car without incident and let it run in idle for as long I want (I've only tested about 12 to 15 minutes of good running idle time so far since this developed today - but I would have thought that with this amount of idle time the fuel pump is obviously running just fine.
Please advise - I am in no way knowledgeable about fuel pump operation and ability under different gas pedal depression positions...... But I will learn
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inthemeantime. . .
EASY!!!
CLRH2O (Clearwater)
Label Manager / Producer / DJ
FORCE RECORDINGS
www.forcerecordings.com
www.clrh2ostudios.com
www.hallucination.com
Could it be your spark? Have you changed your wires lately or plugs? I don't know just a suggestion. You could idle just fine and then try to give it gas and then the extra gas just can't get burned cause you are having bad spark.
I am considering this. My only hold backs to that being the problem are:
1) the car ran normally yesterday and all recent previous days before today.
2) the injector #3 with the moistness of fuel all over it and surrounding area of the rail/manifold
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inthemeantime. . .
EASY!!!
CLRH2O (Clearwater)
Label Manager / Producer / DJ
FORCE RECORDINGS
www.forcerecordings.com
www.clrh2ostudios.com
www.hallucination.com
What I meant to say with #1 there above was - my knowledge of spark issues have always been a slow onset with indications of the eventual loss of a spark plug and its related cylinder. This is not how it has happened before with this car or others in my experience (and granted this is general car ownership experience from 1993 to present) so it seems unlikely.
Add to this that when you loose one cylinder on an engine the engine will still run and accelerate but will buck, and shake and vibrate violently due to the loss of power in one position and rest of the pistons having to take up the slack in order to keep the crank rotating...
I meant to say that along with number 1, this is why I was suspect of that being the cause. Opps
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inthemeantime. . .
EASY!!!
CLRH2O (Clearwater)
Label Manager / Producer / DJ
FORCE RECORDINGS
www.forcerecordings.com
www.clrh2ostudios.com
www.hallucination.com
I had an older 4Runner that had the same symptoms (especially bad in the mornings when it was damp) . Ended up being bad plug wires.
Could also be an airflow problem. When it's idling its getting enough air for the amount of gas. when it gets more gas and can't get enough air it will sputter and die.
First things on the agenda for tomorrow are new plugs. Keep it simple to start. Although I personally doubt this is actually the cause - in the end it can’t hurt the situation. From there - check the filter coming out of the fuel rail and into the Fuel Pressure Regulator (and of course the FPR it's self). Next will be the removal of the intake, throttle body and fuel rail / injectors - at this point I'll already have gone out and purchased an injector o-ring replacement set so that if I find each injector is still functioning as intended I'll be able to return them to their homes properly.
By this point I should have a much clearer idea of what exactly is happening - and during the process will have had a moment to tell if the butterfly flap in the throttle body maybe somehow is being effected by the cold weather and/or shrinking metal... who knows but I might as well look while I'm there.
More from me tomorrow…
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inthemeantime. . .
EASY!!!
CLRH2O (Clearwater)
Label Manager / Producer / DJ
FORCE RECORDINGS
www.forcerecordings.com
www.clrh2ostudios.com
www.hallucination.com
I had the exact same problem, my camry would start and idle just fine, put it in gear and drive like abotu a minute and the damn thing would just die. It was the fuel pump, took it to my buddy and he had a gage that messured the pressue, and it was the fuel pump, new pump later and the car was perfectly fine.
Yeah, it's most likely the fuel pump dying. It has enough power to supply an idle load, but when the engine demands more fuel, it fails to deliver it, causing the symptoms you're describing.
Another possiblity could be a bad TPS sensor. You describe the problem having a serious effect at about 1/3 throttle. The TPS could be cutting out at that point, and the ECU throws a ton of gas in to protect the motor. Again, this is a guess, but I suppose anything's possible.
Another possiblity has nothing to do with fuel at all. It could be a clogged catalytic convertor. These, when clogged, allow the car to idle and run at low speeds, but refuse to let the car operate at higher sustained RPM's. Again, just a thought.
Although the injector that you describe as "moist" could possibly be it, I doubt it. From what you describe, it sounds like a leaky O-ring, but it doesn't seem as that would have such a drastic effect. Again, my opinion.
Best of luck,
Brian
Hello all - I'm back to let you know the result of this thread and put closure to the situation so that other's in the future might get an answer they need.
First off I'll tell what it was not (or at least, what it wasn’t directly).
It wasn’t exactly the injector (or injectors or o-rings directly - more on this below)
It wasn’t the Fuel Pressure Regulator (at least not by it's self - more on this below)
It wasn’t the Spark plugs or Spark plug cables.
What is was - turned out to be a mild combination of three things (with the possible agitation of a fourth part making this likely rare situation a little worse while it was happening).
The Fuel Pump is a little weak.......It's not dead… yet, but it will fairly soon I’d imagine. For right now however its working well enough for me to keep using it.
But, here is where we find one of those hated “uncommon” situations. This is exactly what was going on with my Cav:
With a low amount of fuel - less than1/2 to 3/4 gallon in the gas tank - the dirty filter just before the fuel pressure regulator agitated the already struggling fuel pump into not being able to supply gas down the line to the fuel rail with the partially leaking injector o-ring in position 3.
These three maybe four things all added up and made it impossible for the amount of fuel that was needed for high rpm engine operation to occur.
And what this means is - in my case, the fuel pump will eventually die.....but for the moment so long as I keep the gas level higher than at least 1/2 gallon and make certain that my filter just before the FRP stays clean -AND- watch out for any more o-ring breakage on my injectors (which simply should not happen as I've replaced them) - this Cav will run and do it’s thing.
And in fact - it has been running all day long. I've just come back from a 10 hour “around town for the holiday’s” mission. That said, I did clean out a gunky filter to the FPR, fill the tank above the level it struggled at and replaced the o-rings on my injector / fuel rail set.
And there you have it. I will have to replace the Fuel Pump when it finally dies and sure I probably should have done it yesterday when I got the running again. But given the choice between the last gift for my fiancée’ and spending more on the car that is running again – I choose to just ride it out for now.
Happy holidays everyone – and special thank you’s to all who suggested answers along the way. Cheers!
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inthemeantime. . .
EASY!!!
CLRH2O (Clearwater)
Label Manager / Producer / DJ
FORCE RECORDINGS
www.forcerecordings.com
www.clrh2ostudios.com
www.hallucination.com
w00t thanks for the update glad its workign for ya
