I know it's not a j-body, but it has a QUAD in it, and the org rocks so...
A friend of mine recently picked up a 1994 pontiac grand am with the 2.3L in it. It had recently had a LOT of maintenance done (don't have the list on me, but they went down to the head gasket with just about every rational replacement part). It's at 81,000 miles, automatic.
symptoms:
-seems to die when coming to a stop more than anything else
-doesn't seem to depend on temperature of the engine
-died when going over a speedbump once (only time I know of it died while under constant velocity)
-dash lights flash when it dies
-after dying, there is a relay (or possibly two) under the hood of the car (just above the ECU I believe), on a bracket that continually click while the key is in the 'on' position
-it will start up again, most of the time within 5 minutes
-when it does start up, it takes quite a bit of cranking before it catches, and will sometimes die right after firing (somewhat similar to my cavalier when it goes into theftlock mode or whatever)
-she has mentioned a service engine light coming on sometimes while driving, but it doesn't seem to be related to the time of the problems
-car has OBD 1.5, and I have NO idea how to pull the codes, and my google searches have shown that apparantly nobody else does either (OBD 1.5 was a transition GM implemented before full OBDII was incorporated from what I've heard)
At first I thought it might have been the spark plug boots arching (kind of seems like a car with bad spark plug wires, but no plug wires, so...)
However, the relays seem to be talking to me. One is a gray 4-terminal, the only is a black 5-terminal. There is also a blue one next to them, but not making noise, and not on the same bracket. I pulled the relays out, and will hopefully get a chance to take them apart tonight and see if I can find anything there.
Anyway, does anybody know what these relays do? or have any idea on other possible places to look?
Finally, could this possibly be caused by bad gas? the car hadn't moved in 6 months except for occasional test drives, and the owner said he started the car up every once in a while to let it run a little. This doesn't really sound like a clogged fuel filter to me, but I didn't want to rule it out.
TIA for any input, I'd love to get this taken care of soon (getting stranded in the middle of over-crowded roads is no fun)
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-Josh
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did this problem start before or after the maintance?
<img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/504808/z28.jpg" width=317 height=59>
I don't know. The seller told us that the mechanic said it would be okay to take cross-country if desirable...so I would assume it is new (happened 5 miles from the house
). I don't know for sure.
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-Josh
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Hi Josh
I would think it's a bad connection somewhere, so my guess is electrical??? based on items 1-4 all indicating a connection fault.
Assuming there is a good battery fitted and the alternator is charging correctly.
1. You have the relay kick- suggesting the relay supply is being interupted.
2. Lights flash on and off over a speedbump.
3. Dash lights flash when it dies.
4. Sometimes dies after restarting, so also sometimes keeps running.
I would check both ends of the Battery to Alternator cable-clean and tight.
Both ends of the Battery to Earth cable-clean and tight.
All the fuses pushed tightly in their holders
After that it will be a deal of circuit tracing
just a few thoughts on what might be wrong!
Hope it helps anyway
Alont
Alternator is going out would be my guess. My Z24 did this one time. New alternator and Yellow Top (That thing drove the car for 4 days.)
<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/americanred/deplysig.gif">
So, it's not the alternator, not the battery.
The ignition module tested bad (I think that was my fault), replaced it, still won't even start (that's right it won't even start anymore, not related to replacement of ICM)
Replaced the coil housing, still nothing
I noticed that the engine sounds the same while cranking with the ignition module connected and disconnected.
It doesn't seem like the plug boots can be firmly on the spark plugs and snapped on to the coil housing at the same time, it has to be one or the other. The spring in the boot is definately touching both though.
Going to try th fuel filter now (I was these had schraders like the HOs)
Is there any way to test the coil packs?
There are four relays under the hood up against the firewall on the passenger side. Any idea what these are?
We called the last mechanic that had worked on it, and found out he thought the torque converter lock up solenoid was bad (engine died while coming to a stop), so he had unplugged that. Is there any possibility that could make a difference when it comes to starting the car?
Could water in the gas tank possibly cause anything like the problems we're having?
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-Josh
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check and see if the battery is leaking acid on the pos. terminal... bad battery or alt. will make the relays click like that. have you put a new batt or alt. on or just tested them?
The battery was brand new when we bought the car. Battery tested at 12.1 V, alternator (back when I could get the car started at least) tested at 14.2 V. I took the battery to Autozone and had it tested and charged just in case as well.
Replaced fuel filter (again), coil packs, added more gas, and still nothing.
fuel pressure checks at 40+ when priming and while cranking
sometimes now it seems like the engine wants to start (firing for a second at least), and then dies off. It also sometimes seems like it's more eager to start after sitting for an extended period of time.
starting fluid also seemed to have some effect (hard to describe), kind of made the engine roar while cranking (please don't let it be the injectors)
Going through the wiring diagrams in the Chilton's manual, it looks like one of the relays is for the ignition, and I think another is for the fuel pump (two of the four click once when the key is put to then "on" position.
I'l probably be replacing the boots and plugs next weekend (both look fine though), and maybe see if I can get my hands on some new relays just in case
what are the chances the ECU actually went bad (haven't been near it for anything, so I don't think I have affected it)
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-Josh
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The relays under the hood are listed on the top of the fuse box cover. I think these are the relays you are reffering to. I know you've said that you have checked the alternator, but I would check it again. Mine had the EXACT same problems when my alternator went out 4 days ago. It had the clicking of the relays when the key was in the "on" possition. If the alternator test's good, check the connections in the wires between the alternator and the battery to make sure that they arent green or corroded.
The only reason that I belive there might be another problem beyond this is because your battery is fully charged and still your car isnt starting. I dont think its the relays because if they are still clicking and the engine even fires every once and a while, they would have to be good.
Good luck!
-Nate (ZeeTwankyFo)
ZeeTwankyFo wrote:The relays under the hood are listed on the top of the fuse box cover. I think these are the relays you are reffering to. I know you've said that you have checked the alternator, but I would check it again. Mine had the EXACT same problems when my alternator went out 4 days ago. It had the clicking of the relays when the key was in the "on" possition. If the alternator test's good, check the connections in the wires between the alternator and the battery to make sure that they arent green or corroded.
The only reason that I belive there might be another problem beyond this is because your battery is fully charged and still your car isnt starting. I dont think its the relays because if they are still clicking and the engine even fires every once and a while, they would have to be good.
Good luck!
The relays are on individual wiring harnesses floating on the passenger side firewall (the ECU is right on the other side of the firewall). I don't see a fuse box anywhere near...
Even if the alternator does somehow turn out bad this time (car won't run, so would have to pull it out to test), the car would be able to run off of the battery for a while, correct?
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-Josh
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