Ok so, a few months ago my girlfriend got a 2000 Sunfire from a dealer a couple hours away. Car did fine the entire drive back. A couple days later though, she mentioned that her brakes were making noise. I checked them out and pads were a lil low and the rotors were glazed (mirrored blue). So I did a full brake job, pads, rotors, shoes & drums. Pads and shoes were Wagner and drums & rotors were Advance Auto's store brand. Everything seemed to be good on the car. Two or three days later, she mentions that the right side was shaking hard when she slowed down from higher speeds (55+).
Now when I replaced the pads, I did notice that the piston of the caliper on the passenger side seemed to go in a little easier than the drivers side. So I figured "caliper is worn". Replaced both sides and bled the system. Test drove it and still had vibration from that side (just not as bad). When replacing the calipers, I noticed diagonal scuffs on the passenger side rotor and pads, and the drivers side was started to look glazed (figured it was from that side over compensating for the other). Stopped by Advance the next day and exchanged the pads and rotors for new ones. Again, everything seemed fine until a couple days later, she tells me it's vibrating again. I talked to a couple friends of mine who are technicians and they both suggested replacing the brake hoses.. that the one on the passenger side could be weakening/collapsing, causing the vibration.
Replaced the passenger side hose (which took me 3 hrs because the line nut was completely seized up on the hose, so I had to cut and reflare the line). Bled the system and test drove it. STILL slight vibration, only now instead of being concentrated on just the passenger side, it felt more evenly distributed across both sides. One of my tech friends rode with me and said it felt like the rotors might be warped (and being "white box" rotors, that was possible for them to come out of the box that way). So I called up my buddy at Advance and asked him to order the Wagner rotors (he let me exchange the store brand rotors and pay the diff =D).
Put the Wagner rotors on with brand new Wagner pads. Test drove it and it stopped nice and smooth. Hard braking, light braking, high speed and low.. all seemed perfect... until today. Got a text from the girlfriend saying the vibration was back. I haven't gone over there yet to check it out for myself, but according to her, "It doesn't do it every time I brake.. just from higher speeds (50+). And when it does do it, it takes a second from when I push on the brake before it starts vibrating. It's not a hard shake like before, but it's definitely there."
I am at my wits end as to what is causing the vibration. ANY suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Granted I've been able to exchange the pads and rotors, but neither of us have the money to just throw at "oh it might be this" parts.
Many thanks to anyone who takes the time to help =)
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And since I have no way to edit.. just a summary of what's been replaced already:
Front Pads (Wagner)
Rotors (Wearever)
Calipers (both sides) (bled brakes)
Pads again (Wagner)
Rotors again (Wearever)
Pass. Brake Hose (bled brakes again)
Pads again (Wagner)
Rotors again (Wagner)
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my list of things to check:
worn or bad hubs/bearing
worn or bad ball joints
tightness of bolts connecting hub to knuckle
brake distro block.
im not saying its any of these, but its a list of things i would think might be causing an issue you are discribing.
Hub assembly did cross my mind. I searched on here a couple days ago for problems with vibration, and none of the threads I found dealt with issues when braking, but it was mentioned a couple times that if the face of the hub where the rotor mounts isn't even, that it can cause vibration.
I've checked the ball joint and tie rod end for play on the numerous times I've had the front wheels off in the last month and all seems solid. I haven't done the "pry bar under the tire" check for the ball joint yet, so I may do that tonight.
If the ball joint or tie rod end was bad, wouldn't it be noticeable all the time and not just when braking (and not even every time when braking)?
Thanks for the reply
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I would make sure the front wheels are balanced for one.Second if the alignment is not in tune pulls a little while braking in a straight line on a good level road any speed will tell if it is or not.The only other item not listed is bad struts which could cause the shake as well.Being the items listed above do a front end check,push down one time on the front end both sides it should not bounce more than one time,if more it has worn struts,and definitely balance the front whls u would be suprised what a out of balance whl can do to brakes.Hope this helps give a different opinion of things.
The calipers may be sticking on the mounting bolt bushing that is supposed to move freely inside the rubber bushing to compensate for pad wear adjustment, causing them to drag slightly and overheating then warping the rotor at higher more constant speeds, If that is the case simply lubricate.
Granted everything you installed was done so correctly, I would say it is not the brakes. Although they are being affected.
Break out the haynes and check the torque on all accessible wheel assembly/suspension nuts/bolts, grease brake parts that need it.
If suspension is tight and not worn, look at tires, even if it only shakes while braking, rotate or swap winter /summers and look for difs.
It has been my experience that these cars eat front brakes, especially if you are hard on them, could be her driving habits.
I would be interested to know what it is, you have exhausted a lot of options.
Well, I don't think it's her driving habits for a couple reasons. That side pretty much had a vibration from day one, and two; she had a 97 Sunfire previous to this one and never had this issue.
I did notice that the wheel weights on that side wheel were.. well.. weird. On the inside part of the rim, it had a 1.25oz and a 10g weight right next to each other.... and about 12 inches away, there was another 10g weight. Gonna get them rebalanced Tuesday. I'll let you all know if that fixes/helps.
Thanks for all the info =)
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Seen a bad P/S rack cause a viberation on braking before
- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new
So.. got the tires balanced (they were all way off) and in the process, realised the two tires on the right side had slipped belts (center tread dipped every so often. Very noticeable with the wheel spinning on the balancer). So yeah.. had those two moved to the rear and the two good tires to the front. Still getting some vibration when stopping, but's all in the ass-end now so that was definitely the problem. Crappy thing is it was probably caused by the wheels being balanced incorrectly.. the tread isn't even that worn on them yet =(
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Glad to see my suggestion helped resolve the puzzle of all the drama.I suggest keeping them rotated every 5-6 thousand and torque the lugs every time.You can normally feel a out of balance tire and does not mean to balance the tire every 5-6 unless it shows wear or you feel the vibration front or rear.That is the rule I follow on my rides/wifes car.
Reviving this thread because believe it or not, I'm STILL having vibration from the passenger side. The ball joint looked a little rough so I replaced it along with the lower control arm 2-3 weeks ago (was easier since GM likes to rivet everything lol). Still vibrating when braking but it got a little better. This past Saturday, I replaced the outer tie-rod end on the passenger side and the vibration got better, but is STILL present when braking from higher speed (50mph +) The tie rod end was pretty terrible looking (I could move the stud with my pinkie finger) so I was certain that after all I've replaced on this car, that that would be the solution. I'm about to pull my hair out over this thing.. WHAT COULD BE CAUSING IT!?
recap of whats been replaced so no one has to scroll back through:
Front Pads (Wagner)
Rotors (Wearever)
Calipers (both sides) (bled brakes)
Pads again (Wagner)
Rotors again (Wearever)
Pass. Brake Hose (bled brakes again)
Pads again (Wagner)
Rotors again (Wagner)
Lower control arm with Ball Jointg (NAPA)
Outer Tie-rod End (Moog)
I haven't replaced the brakes again but they
look ok.. I still plan on just because. Also, I was going to replace the sway bar links when I did the CA/BJ but this car doesn't even have one. Did they make Sunfires w/o a sway bar or is it possible someone removed it (for whatever reason) and
that[ is what's causing the vibration?
Thanks in advance to anyone who helps.. like I said before.. it's driving me crazy that I can't find the problem (positive note.. the front end suspension is about all new now lol)
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I suggest replacing the rotors one more time. This go around, make sure you properly torque the wheels and go through the process of bedding the brakes. I torque mine at 100 foot pounds. Look up the process for bedding brakes.
If it still vibrates after this, the only thing left is the struts. I recomend quick struts so everything is new plus they're much easier to install.
2.2 97 Cavalier......the "Crapalier"
Yeah I intend on swapping out the pads and rotors on warrenty one more time.. and REALLY hope that takes care of it. I can get a National hub assembly for $46 so price wise, it's not that bad.. just very time consuming. I've done the bounce check on the front and rear and the struts/shocks are solid so I doubt it's them.
Is there any way to tell if it's the hub short of tearing it down and just replacing it?
I've thought about having a friend of mine put it on a lift with someone in the drivers seat and "drive" the car while it's in the air and then brake hard to see if I can see anything shaking or vibrating. Of course, the weight of the car will be off the wheels so it may not do anything. If nothing else, I could have her drive it from one end of the parking lot to the other at our apartment and have her stop when she gets near me so I can see if the wheel is shaking at all.
Thanks again to any who post suggestions =)
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Your lower motor mount isn't shot is it?
Im seriously wondering if she is doing something to mess the car up though.
Weebl, I didn't think to check the lower mount, but I will.
And I know it's nothing she's doing to the car/driving habits. I'm way harder on my car than she is.. hell, when I drive her car, she tells me I shift "too hard" lol. This has been an on going process pretty much since we got the car. It's only "gotten better" a couple times and only for about a day or so. The car had been in an accident a couple years before we got it, and according to the CarFax, it was very minor damage done to the passenger front.. dunno if it screwed up something the body shop didn't catch or what *shrug*
I'll check the mount sometime this week and let you guys know.
Thanks again =)
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I had a similar problem and ended up putting cross drilled rotors made by powerstop on the front with their brand of pads. The rotors were around $62.00 a piece and the pads were about $40.00 at Summit Racing Equipment. But no matter how hard you were on the brake pedal, the car stopped straight every time with no vibration, ever. I went through 3 sets of pads over an 80k mile range with various degress of braking before replacing the rotors having never had a problem with the rotors. I even had a receiver on the car to pull my 4-wheeler trailer with and the car stopped straight with no vibration.
The pad compound that the Advanced pads are made of could be part of the problem. Have you tried to upgrade to ceramic pads or full metallic pads as opposed to semi-metallic or organic pads?
Some people have brain storms, others light drizzles. And then there are those that have droughts.
You know, since you mentioned an accident, get the car on an alignment rack and check the thrust angle. If that's off, then the frame did get twisted a little. If thats the case, you could be burning up a CV joint. Usually when a CV is bad you'd feel a slight vibration in the steering wheel during acceleration, but hey, with this problem you've got and what you've done, who knows. Axle's are pretty cheap now.
JCZ, the pads are Wagner semi-metallic.. which I've used on my 03 cavalier, my mom's 99 cavalier and my g/f's last car (97 sunfire) and I've never had an issue with them. Although the vibration problem didn't seem to start until after I replaced the pads... it's just seems weird to me that I could go through three sets on her car and all of them cause vibration when I've put the same brakes on my car several times with NO issues. Could just be coincidence.. who knows.
I'm still wondering about this car's lack of a sway bar too.
Either way, this weekend I'm going to replace the pads and rotors as well as the lower engine mount and see what that does. I'll update with the results.. hopefully they'll be positive.
Ya I was talking about the dog bone... its just a shot on the dark but I'de still check the mounts just to make sure since you've gone over damn near everything else.
Other then the car being tweaked and messed up, I cant think of anything else you havn't checked / has been mentioned.
get little digital camcorder and a big magnet and place it under the car. Then you can see what is going on. We have what is known as the death wobble on jeeps but that is from hitting a bump and not braking.
Proper diagnosis could have avoided alot of spent money on this...
IT sounds like you need to go after the REAR brakes... or something in the hydraulic lines going to the rear.
Basically I would bet the rears are not working properly (IF at all) and the fronts are the only thing slowing the car down, thus overheating the rotors in the front from a long hard stop (55+ type stop) and causing the pads to imprint the rotors once she is stopped (since noone eases up on the brake pedal once the vehicle stops) resulting in a thickness difference on the rotor.
Try having her drive the car for a good half hour at the higher speeds then take a temperature reading of all four brakes... drums and discs. I would bet the rears are not working.
Remember kids, rotors do not warp, but pads will leave an imprint on the surface of a rotor when they get hot and you leave brake pressure on them.
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
The rear brakes were working fine after I replaced them with the front brakes.. but I'll check them again this weekend along with the other stuff. Thanks for the tip =)
And fortunately there hasn't been
too much money "wasted" since the ball joint and tie-rod end on the passenger side
did need to be replaced.. probably the calipers and brake hose were the only things that weren't necessary. The pads and rotors have been swapped under warranty each time and will be again this weekend.
Hopefully I'll find the answer tomorrow. I'll let you guys know what I find.
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Alex Richards wrote:
.........Remember kids, rotors do not warp .........
"With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification."
I always believed that rotors didn't warp....until I experienced improper torque warping the crap out of rotors on my Tahoe. Tires were rotated by a Firestone prior to a 500 mile trip. Before I was halfway there I had a terrible braking vibration. Replaced the rotors and problem solved. Several months later the same exact thing occurred after Firestone rotated the tires. They were torqueing the wheels so tight I could barely get some of the lugs off with a 2 foot breaker bar!
Moral of the story.....torque wheels to spec by hand after anyone touches your wheels. Then re-torque a couple days later. Before rotation, I throw a breaker and torque wrench in the car and check it before diriving off the lot.
I've also read horror stories of wheels coming off after rotation!
2.2 97 Cavalier......the "Crapalier"
