Still trying to get this car to run.
1997 Sunfire GT 4.2
Car ran when I put it on the car dolly after that starter would not crank..
The guy I bought the car from said the car also had a charging problem.
I did the Big Three upgrade on the grounding system.
Checked, Pulled and replaced the starter and alternator ,both were bad..
Changed the oil and filter, topped off antifreeze.
Changed plugs and boots and it took me two tries, but I thought I had it right.
You can hear the fuel pump build pressure and cutoff when turning the key to ignition.
After all that work now the car cranks fine but
will not fire at all.
Battery was disconnected about 5 days total.
The only thing I did that should affect ignition was changing the plugs and boots..
The only connection to the spark plug manifold is the single connector going to the coils
So that is kinda hard to mess up.
Could it be that I didnt make any of the plugs when I installed the new boots? I have the cover
off can see nothing wrong.
Any ideas?
Thanks...gary
You said getting the spark plugs and boots on took two tries? Explain.
Also, try starting the car on carb cleaner, that helped me the last time I had spark and fuel but no start.
I purchased new boots and plastic sleeves which go around the spark plugs on a 2.4.
The plastic cones snap onto the distributor rail which is hooked to the coils.
you then push the cover and boot assembly down over the plugs.
I still do not know if I am making the boot to plug connection correctly or not.
I put the boot in the plastic sleeve, greased boots with dialectric grease , put the sleeves on the rail, and put cover on.
I never got any kind of distinct plug clicks or anything when I put the cover on, but then they really dont work that way.
You also cannot see if they are going on right or not. The problem is, I cannot not figure out any way to make it any better,
Maybe because the boots are new and not sliding down on the plugs far enough to make a connection?
I would figure that even then I would get a hit on one of the plugs.
thanks..gary
Any way to check for spark on this ignition system? I cant stick a screwdriver in a plug wire on this car.
thanks...gary
Yup, the dielectric grease, I would say, wasn't needed. More than likely you put them in correctly, I can say with 99.99% certainty that isn't your problem.
You can check for spark by pulling the IDI cover, the lil electrodes that plug into the boots, hold them very close to the cam tower cover and have someone crank it over. You should see spark jump between the two. You can also plug a spark plug wire into the end of the electrode and then plug a spark plug into the other end and watch the show as well.
Have you tried starting it with carb cleaner? I'm tellin you, its like crack for your car!
Why would you shove a screw driver into a spark plug wire to check for spark?
how much fuel pressure do you have?
Using a screwdriver is the way I have always checked them. Stick a screwdriver in the plug boot, hold the screwdriver close to the block and look for an arc.
I have not checked the fuel pressure, would not know where to check. Can you tell me where to check and what pressure readings should be?
Thanks...gary
I do no see how it could be affecting ignition, but I had the starter and alternator off. Could miswiring on the starter affect the ignition in any way?
i am allll too familiar with the ignition setup on a 2.4L.....
you have a few options to diagnose the issue.... and a few things you can try to fix the starting issue....
but first of all... when you crank it... does it even TRY to fire? do you get any signs of attempted combustion? or does it just crank over nice and smoothe and evenly?
bolt everything together like it was... try to crank it... listen/feel for attempted combustion... (sputters, coughs, pulses in cranking)
then pop the hood... at the very edge of the engine cover, driver side, is one connector to the ignition module.... disconnect that completely... then try to start it again... see if it acts any differently when starting it with and without that connected.
if it is exactly the same regardless of that connection... then you definately have a pretty significant spark / ignition problem.... if it is much smoother and more rhytmic with the wires off... then you know your ignition is at least TRYING....
After trying to start it for a while.... Pull your spark plugs.... look at the tips.... are they still shiney silver like when you took them out of the box? or are they all black and wet looking? or shiney silver and wet looking? describe them to me best you can... or email or post photos of them if you can.
if they are wet at all... or smell like gasoline... then you have an ignition problem.... if they are shiney and new looking.... you may have a fuel problem. check all 4 and see if they all look the same....
also... make sure you have the right kind of plugs and the correct gap... which plugs did you buy? and what did you gap them to?
as mentioned before... you can pull the whole "IDI unit" off.. (IDI = Intergrated Distributorless Ignition... which includes the engine cover, and white plastic chunk attached to it holing the ignition/coil/module and everything)
pull the IDI assembly up off the engine... rotate it 90 degrees and set it on the back half of the engine, with the 4 white nubs pointing at the front of the car... pull the spark plugs and boots and springs all off the car... and assemble them on to the IDI unit... so now you have the 4 plugs connected and the business end facing you.... connect the main harness back to the IDI unit.... (will be a tight reach.... but should make it)
angle the whole unit so that as many of the spark plugs are touching their threads to the metal engine as possible... and have someone crank the car while you watch the tips of the plugs... you should have a good spark, even visible in direct sunlight. for plugs that dont reach metal... use your screwdriver trick to ground them....
if you have some old spark plug wires off another car... you can also use those in place of the "boots" and "springs" inside the white cylinders is just another spark plug style tip... just clip a spark plug wire to that nub... and one to a spark plug... and you can test things just like you would on a car with wires... (yes using a screwdriver if you like... but i prefer to use a plug.)
if there was a charging or other electircal problem with the car... it is possible that some electronic component got fried.... inside that white plastic hunk is a ignition computer module... some wires, and 2 coils... any one of those could have fried on you.... all of the above are VERY $$$$$ to buy new... best bet is go to a junkyard and buy the entire IDI unit off another car.. they dont usually go bad or wear out.... unless something happens to fry them... like a bad alternator or something...
oh and there is no easy way to check fuel pressure on a 2.4L... it requires drilling and tapping the fuel rail, or cutting and splicing the fuel line. gm didnt bother to put a test vavle on the 2.4L... thanks gm!
Ok, here is what we did today. Sprayed carb cleaner while cranking didn't get a single hit from ignition.
Checked the voltage going into ICM (ignition computer module) per the Haynes manual and it was 12 volts.
Took the ICM to an auto parts store and it tested ok.
Checked the resistance of the primary circuit on the coils per Haynes manual and it checked ok. (how the heck do the coils come out of that distributor rail anyway?
We were going to check the secondary on the coils, but didn't do it because we didn't take the time to figure out how to remove the coils.
I did pull the cover and inserted old plugs into boots, grounded the cover, but did not ground the plugs, so I will have to try that again toniight..
I really think I have no fire to the plugs. I will try firing it tonight then pull the plugs to see if they are wet.
I will then check the (grounded) plugs and repost this evening...thanks...gary
Oh, I installed Bosch Platimum Plugs gapped to .050.
Thanks...gary
Ive got a 95 sunfire with the ln2 in it and im also not getting any spark. I talked to my uncle and he said sometimes the crank sensor's go bad a nd it helps to control spark as well. Im not sure if this is correct or not and dont know if this can apply to you but im going to try this because I am at my wits end and cant figure this out myself. Right now anything I can do can help. Ive wasted so much time on this thing its insane. I honestly dont know if this will help you or not but im going to try it.
I feel your pain Jerry!
Ken,
thanks for all the help. Here is what happened since my last post, please read the 3 previous posts also.
I pulled the cover, put old plugs in boots and grounded them against the block
had the wife crank the car, no spark on any plug.
When I originally put in the new plugs, one of the plastic sleeves was cracked.
So I went to AZ and bought Autolite replacements.
I have since pulled the cover 3 times.
The plastic covers are all broken again. Two broke where they snap onto the coil rail
one cracked and one left a big chunk down by the spark plug.
There has got to be a better design out there somewhere.
Any way I can just route plug wires between the plug and the rail?
This is one screwed up engineering design.
....gary
Ok, think I figured it out. Looking at electrical diagrams in the Haynes manual, that wire that is hanging down with the yellow and purple wire is for the crankshaft sensor.
That is why the car is not running.
Now all I have to do is find it on the block, must be somewhere in back of the manifold..
Gary
gary moore wrote: This is one screwed up engineering design.
....gary
Gary, I feel your frustration and I know these IDI units can be problematic, but in the 14 years that the Quad4/Twin Cam engines were built with well over a million units coming off the line, countless thousands of mechanics have removed and serviced the IDI assemblies without breaking them. Most of the LD9 engines running today still use these, but there are some that have converted their engines to use the 2.2 engine coil packs and others have tried the Dodge Neon packs. Threads for both of these can be found in the Performance forum. A previous poster suggested getting another IDI assembly off a junkyard car to try and I'd second the recommendation. There are no plug-and-play aftermarket solutions that I know of. Sounds like you're finding many sins committed against this car by others before you and recovering from that is rarely easy and often expensive. I'm confident you'll get done right. Good luck. - Mark
Mark,
Not meaning to dis your machines' design here, just getting frustrated with something unfamiliar.
Maybe it is just cheepy delco parts but it seems we could try making the plastic sleeves from something less brittle.
All four of these sleeves I purchased 3 days ago are broken and I am not being rough on them, just taking them on and off
repeatedly.
Just seems like plug wires would be a good thing.
Our engineers need to think about the
"if It aint broke dont fix it" thing
thanks for the reply
.....gary
I've had my LD9 for 10 years and never cracked a single one. My other LD9 is 13 years old and they are all still intact. You sure you aren't being too brutal?
The plastic clips aren't all that important, you can run without them.
When I tested my fuel pressure on the cav I just unbolted the metal fuel line from the fuel rail and screwed it into my tester. It got the point across just fine.
Glad to hear you got it up and running tho.
I am also sorry Ragin Z for not thanking you properly. I appreciate all the help you have given me in this thread . The next brew is on me man...gary
No biggie man, good times.
Industrial machinery? Maybe you are more of a brute than you realize! My step dad is a mechanic for a rock quary. Werking on bulldozers and such, tons of really large catapillar equipment. The size of some of his tools is amazing! He uses a 1" impact gun on a daily basis, the sockets, wooooooooow! lol When I was a kid we couldn't even open the bottle of coke! Had to wait for him to come home or cut the top off! Hahahaha!
I usually clip the boots to the IDI and then watch them slide into the spark plug holes. Press down, bolt it up and fire it up.
More used to carbed equipment? Isn't it amazing how complicated this stuff is these days? I love my 83 camaro with the holley 670 carb, all I need is a wrench and a flat head screw driver to werk on it.
My cavy tho, you need computer equipment and retarded amounts of knowledge about troubleshooting and wiring.
Yea, I got all the big tools also. My training was mostly on CNC Equipment and now I do robots for Chrysler.
As far as the cars go, been messing with them for some time. Little british cars, triumphs, mgs and austins in my young days.
The last engine I overhauled was a 2.5 out of a plymouth K wagon. Changed heads about 3 times on that one also. I just pass it around
the family and get it back when it is no longer needed or broken. My son has that one right now.
But about those sleevey things that go around the plug:
The last set I purchased was made byt Autolite. I thought that maybe it was something to do with the brand
so I went to AZ meaning to look at the Bosch Brand to see if they were any more sturdy.
They were out of the Bosch so I bought the Duralast Brand. I was walking out and happen to notice that
one of the sleeves had a broken tab. I asked for a different bag of parts and got another with a broken tab.
Finally the sales girl opened the bag and just made me a set.
I think I am getting bad parts. Hopefully this is the last time this week that that damn cover goes on....gary
gary moore wrote:I'm an old guy and been wrenching on cars and industrial machinery for a while now.
Gary, I've got 5 more years on you. We're definitely in the minority on the wrenching circuit anymore. You and I both remember when a "full" toolbox only needed SAE sockets and end wrenches (unless you specialized on those Brit cars of the '60s). If you were really current with the technology, you owned a dwell meter and a timing light too. Good times, eh? Take care and best of luck. - Mark
