I have an 2200/OHV - and the valve train has a pretty distinct sound while running... Well today when I got in the car to go home it seemed to be "tapping" a lil louder than usual, I didnt notice it until I was driving and it was very faint, so when I got home I listened to it and it sounds like its tapping and when i rev it up a lil the tapping increases in speed (obviously) and it gets slightly louder. Now its winter, its snowy, its freezing, and it was dark out so I didnt physically check for anything.

Any ideas on what would make it louder? Maybe just cause its been so cold out? I took the valve cover off maybe 2 months ago (about a month after the new head was in and turbo was installed) and all the rockers were still torqued down right... should I check that again? Oil level is also fine. The only reason why im worried is because its kind of hard for me to work on it in the winter. Its been babied lately and hasn't seen much or any boost for awhile...

Mine 96' has the same thing. Im thinking mine is a loose rocker arm or collapsed lifter.

Any one else have any ideas?

The car doesn't hesitate at all, and drives completely normal... just has that faint sound of extra tapping.

You mention that its winter where your at, as it is here. I'm willing to bet that its weather related. As it gets colder you oil is getting thicker when it sits for awhile thus causing the tapping noise. Does the noise go away after the car is up to temp and ran for awhile? If I were you, I would try a thinner oil for the winter months. I'm willing to bet that this will cure the problem. I once had a 00 GA GT, and you should have heard the valves in that 3400 when it got cold out, it was to the point where it was actually embarassing when I started the car. I switched to a thinner oil for winter and the problem was resolved.


Aaron


97 Cavalier Z24 @ 85k
00 Cavalier Base Coupe @ 152k...rollin on 14's!
97 Grand Cherokee 5.2L@ 260k

Forgot to write this in my above msg, but this is a problem that I've noticed in just about all of GM's OHV engines. I don't think its nothing serious though, but if your like me and completely anal about car maintenance you'd rather not hear it.


Aaron


97 Cavalier Z24 @ 85k
00 Cavalier Base Coupe @ 152k...rollin on 14's!
97 Grand Cherokee 5.2L@ 260k

No it doesn't really change once the car warms up... Its been cold out for weeks & weeks now and it just started last night on my way home from work. I would have guessed it was more weather related had it started once it started getting cold out. It runs on Mobil 1 synthetic, and have been for about 2 years now and I never noticed it. I put my snow tires/rims on yesterday but I don't see how that would have affected anything.

I have almost 55k miles on the block, i believe theres about 45k or so on the head, and only 2k on boost. Its still a young engine. Would a timing chain start going bad this soon? And would the car being boosted have any effect on the chain?

I ran an HPT log on the way to work today, when I get home im going to look over it and see if anythings off. But other than that im kind of stumped .Its too cold to go and start checking things in the head, I don't have a garage so I might have to live with it until it gets warm out again or until something breaks. Unless I can pinpoint whats wrong I'll try to brave the weather lol.

I don't know the history of the head as much as the block and my stock head but I took good care of the engine, oil changes on time, hit the rev limiter maybe 3-4x total in its life, on accident... i mean it saw a beating on occasion, when i brought it to the track and stuff but for the most part its a well taken care of motor. My boost tune is pretty right on, I need some fine adjustments still but as far as fuel trims and timing I couldn't get that much more accurate. So im kinda stumped... and unless its because the motors just starting to get really broken in... i dunno...

I really think that if your timing chain was going bad, you would have other problems going on also. I could be wrong but seems logical to me. I'm really wondering if this isn't what you would call piston slap instead. My dad has a 2000 Silverado with the 4.8L and it does it ALL the time, ever since about 20k. Since it was still under warranty he took it back and the Chevy garage told him that the walls around the pistons warp and when you start the vehicle to pistons are constantly pushing the walls back into shape and thus the noise. He had it fixed, but 20k later it started doing it again...and never had it fixed again. The truck now has well over 100k and it still does it but hasn't had any other problems related to it.


Aaron


97 Cavalier Z24 @ 85k
00 Cavalier Base Coupe @ 152k...rollin on 14's!
97 Grand Cherokee 5.2L@ 260k

Sounds like a lifter is deciding not to pump up.



2009 Ford Mustang V6

The01Cav wrote:Sounds like a lifter is deciding not to pump up.

Yup......

It sounds like you have a colapsing lifter.... and the oil being thicker from the cold has made it worse...... and now it's gotton to bad to reset itself when the oil thins out.

No if it was a collapsed lifter, wouldn't it affect the vehicles performance?

^^^ if it's just one lifter... and it isn't extremely bad..... than you probably won't notice a loss in performance......

I had a lifter almost fully colaps on a truck I used to have.... and if it wheren't for the noise.... I wouldn't have ever known anything was wrong.....

I guess my dilemma is this... if i had a garage or if it wasnt below freezing and snowing this time of year, id pull the head and replace the lifters... but its kind of hard to do it now due to the circumstances. if it is a collapsed lifter... if its ran like this is is just going to get worse and cause damage, or should it still make it through the winter but just not be running where it should be? I know thats something thats almost impossible to say for sure.. but I dont see being able to fix it unless someone loans me their garage lol.

We have 2 other cars but our pickup is supposed to be replacing the SS over the winter, so basically we'll be stuck sharing one vehicle if i park the cavalier which is just about impossible due to my bf's changing schedule. The SS has bald summer tires and blown ringlands. its not that bad, it still runs and the performance is still there but u can tell its 'sick'... its not a winter vehicle at all at this point.

I didn't realize you had to pull the head to replace lifters on a LN2.... For some reason I was visualizing pulling the intake manifold on a v-8.

It's hard to tell for sure what it is without hearing it.... but it def sounds like a lifter.....

If the ticking is VERY faint.. if should be fine in the mean time... but if It gets much louder I would stop driving it.....

Just another thought.... low oil pressure or not enough oil can cause lifters to collaps too...

to bad you don't of a clip of the sound.

Ive never replaced lifters before so im not 100% whats involved, i was just guessing..

The ticking sound is faint especially in the car, but you can hear it. Its noticable outside the car, if you know what it normally sounds like, you can tell its out of the norm. But its not very loud.

I really don't know how else to explain it... If you imagine the sound of an OHV idling. It has a very distinguished sound. And you can hear the valve train. Well with each time you hear the valve train make that normal tap sound that it does... the new tapping, ticks in rhythm with it, just a hair louder and sounding more abnormal. So you can hear both, but that new sound stands out on top of it. If that makes sence.

I might be able to get video of the sound at some point this weekend, if I don't figure out what the problem is that way it may help you guys give a more accurate assumption to help me out.

I also have not lifted the hood and tried to pinpoint the direction of where its coming from. I picked up my truck today to give the cavalier a break at least until my bf is back in town.

I have probably 3 bad lifters in my car, one isnt opening the valve all the way, I can tell this because at idle there is a miss, or a slight sputter every time the motor turns over.

This i think is from the headgasket being replaced before i bought the car and a bunch of water running through the system.

Anyhow, ive been running (and running it HARD) every day for about 3 months. Its so loud that you can hear it about 100 feet away if you listen, sometimes its quiet and sometimes its not (its tempermental lol)

The reason that im not worried about it is because I can see that all the rocker arms are getting about the same amount of oil. When i swapped the head there were 2 that were getting no oil at all.

Replacing the lifters is a sinch on an LN2, pop the head off, remove the guides on top of the lifters (1 bolt), pull 'em out and put the prepped new lifters in. I could probably do it in about 1.5 hours if it were cold enough and I was forced to work fast.

I would pull the valve cover and make sure all the rockers are oiling up. If youre getting enough oil then Id say its ok to drive, just dont beat on it if youre uneasy about it. Then swap the lifters when its warmer.

And do a LT1 lifter conversion while youre at it

Good luck!

**Also, the easiest way to tell if its a lifter, take the valve cover off and start the car, while its running, carefully put a screwdriver on a rocker arm bolt and place your ear to the other end of the screwdriver (be careful, if you slip off, it REALLY hurts lol)... if you have a bad lifter you hear slapping of metal**

I don't think I could pull the head off and put it back on in an hour and a half, not that fast yet. I've only done it once. Its easy theres just some PITA bolts... I hate that power steering pump. But then again if your not totally swapping heads (which is what i did) some of that stuff might be ok to leave on, just to get the head out of the way? Maybe?

And yes I would deffinatly do the LT1 lifter conversion if it turns out that it is the lifter causing that sound.

I plan on pulling the valve cover on Saturday, its supposed to be 35 degrees! warm!.... <sarcasm> ....and im going to give it an oil change as well.

I was told that maybe some Mobile1 0w-40 might help the lifter re-stabilize itself or something, it some thinner oil is used. would anyone recommend this or should i stick with the Mobile1 5w-30 that i've been using?

Who suggested the different oil? If it helps the lifter I might try it to depending on what the outcome is.

When i pull the head I start at the PS pump, The first 2 times I pulled the head I let the motor fall THEN pulled the PS pump bolts. Its much easier to do that first, then take everything else off of it.

I dont think you can swap the lifters without totally removing the head at all. You dont need to remove the accessory bracket from the head however (if you did before the head was out of the car) -- just the alt, PS pump, and belt on that side (motor mount too lol) and then once the intake and exhaust are out and the coolant is drained, just rotate the front of the head up first and kinda wiggle it out on an angle towards the front of the car. -- the last time i did it i didnt remove the coilpacks either.

I would gladly help you if you wanted to change the lifters, but I hardly have free time to work on my own car haha.

Yea like I said its easy, not much to it, just a lot of bolts to undo. lol.

You can help if you want, I mean your only in IL according to ur registry and im in NH lol.

I worked on my car alot this year late summer/early fall. I was hoping to be done with it till it got warm again :-p So much for that...

Hopefully its nothing too bad.

I sent slowolej a pm, im hoping he might be able to help me out, and give me his thoughts as-well... he's really close by me

haha thats kinda a drive for me :p

Im sure its nothing major, the 2200 is a beast when it comes to running on broken legs as well, a friend of mine had one that should have blown or broken or SOMETHING about a year before he got a new car, bad gaskets, always low oil, all kinds of noises that you shouldnt hear, lol it was a wonder it started every time he turned the key.

Get it fixed and make it faster.

Cheers

well jess, i wish I could add something here but I can't.. my only suggestion is to just run it as is and wait until a warmer time to really diagnose it
you'll know the full extent of the problem when the car breaks down. guessing at what the problem could be is just that... it could be anything


I doubt the timing chain because thats down near the bottom of the engine. if you hear the ticking near the top, then its valve train related.


pull the valve cover at least and check to make sure everything is ok for the time being.
also, try to see if you can find an exhaust leak on your turbo manifold, sometimes those have a ticking type sound to them that can sound like valve train noise.

the only thing I can guarantee is if its something really bad, its going to advance quickly. if you make it for a while, then it can more than likely wait.

keep your fingers crossed.

The LN2's with roller cam seem to be a noisy engine to me. Every one I've owned or worked on seems to have more valvetrain noise than the older flat lifter engines. I would love to see the ramp rates for the roller vs non roller cams to see how quickly the lifters come up off the base circle. My theory is the roller cam is aggressive enough to generate noise.

The 1995 LN2 I installed in my wife's 93 was bought used and had a distinct tap from the day I bought it. I checked for proper preload on the pushrof, checked to make sure the valve guides weren't worn, checked for broken springs, then shrugged my shoulders and didn't worry again. The 94 beater we're driving now had only 76k miles when we bought it a couple of years ago. It too had valve noise. I never even bothered checking that engine.

The timing chain noise is very distinct and sounds like it's coming out of the front of the engine. The frequency of taps that it makes is higher than valve noise since it happens when the lifters move over the nose of the lobe. If a valve noise sounded like tick....tick....tick....tick.... then the timing chain noise would be tickticktickticktick.

Mobil1 is a good oil although much too expensive for me. Are you using a 10W or 5W grade right now? I'd be using the 5W for sure. If you're close to oil change time you might be able to add 1 qt Marvel Mystery Oil and drive it that way for a few days. MMO is some good stuff and one of it's claims to fame is "quiets noisy lifters." I have been using it in my fuel for years. I agree with PJ that it wouldn't hurt to pull the valve cover and check the rockers / pushrods / etc just for grins. If everything looks good you could try running Seafoam or some other engine flush for about 20 minutes before changing oil (but don't add the MMO and the flush or the poor engine will end up swimming in oil).

Ok, gotta run and pick up a broken bus. I've been doing that all week along with shoveling parking lots, removing snow from buses, laying under buses in snow, fixing coolant leaks in snow... Did you say something about working in a garage?

-->Slow

Shannen, i have no more comments on not having a garage

Yea I understand its a louder engine but a new sound that appeared out of nowhere that was definitely noticable, i guessed something wasn't quite right. Maybe its just not taking winter as well now that it has a few more miles on the engine. In addition to the slightly thicker synthetic oil (5w-30)...

I plan to take the valve cover off on saturday & re-check the torque on all the rockers, check for anything that looks abnormal... I wanted to do an oil change but maybe i will try what you said Shannen and use that MMO. Can that be bought at any auto store?

My other fear was the valves in the head --> i know that head had a lil bit of a rough life for awhile before it was temporarily retired *cough cough* PJ <3 but as far it running for awhile, while being stressed by the issue it was having before it was taken outa the Skwirl. We pulled it apart and put the proper components back in... i wondered if it would give me problems eventually. Either that or the stiffer JBP valve springs causing more stress on the other components... and being the lifters are stock, and the push rods and up are all a bit stronger over stock.. anything could come into play.

And as far as comparing it to the sound a timing chain would make. I have not delt with either happening so i cant compare but the sound im hearing is fairly frequent and like i said increases with the revvs of the engine. From what I can tell the ticking im hearing clicks with each time i hear the engine does its normal tap. i would say its more of a ticktickticktick than a pause between...

Quote:

Mine 96' has the same thing. Im thinking mine is a loose rocker arm or collapsed lifter.

Thats funny i thought i said the same thing, its not like i studied cars and trucks in high school and college.

Ok, i vented, now im gonna try to help. It is very important to let the new lifters soak in oil for atleast a day(I would personally let them soak for longer just to be sure). This will prime the lifters. Also I (personally) would try to see if i can snake the lifters out up throught the pushrod holes before removing the head. Last thing if you are around Binghamton, NY or Scranton, PA, my garage is avalible.

I keep on thinking about tearing into my 96' and fixing @!#$, but i dont drive it cuz i have my 03' now.

lol.. i didn't ask for other suggestions because i thought you were wrong.....

From what Matt Linke said the head has to be removed. Theres a bolt for the lifter guides that needs to be removed. This is correct?

Btw I appreciate your offer but im in the southern NH area