what about 03-05 - Newbies Forum

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what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:16 PM
why isnt the 03-05 cavalier considered the 4th gren?? all i ever see them put in is the 3rd gen whats up with that?

Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:24 PM
No, 03-05 is 3rd gen. Only the sheetmetal of the hood, headlights, and some plastic changed, the frame is the same thing.





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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:34 PM
the engines not and it makes it hard to tell if somone saying they have a 3rd gen if taling abotu the 00-02 or the 03-05 why not makes it into is own
Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:36 PM
I think there is enough of a difference especially with the ecotec compared to older motors that it should have it's own generation.... but my opinion doesnt matter


Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:37 PM
nick asher wrote:the engines not and it makes it hard to tell if somone saying they have a 3rd gen if taling abotu the 00-02 or the 03-05 why not makes it into is own


and doesnt that make the car a different car????
Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:37 PM
usually when someone is says "3rd gen" theyre referring to something concerning the exterior/suspension/interior. when someone is referring to an engine, they usually say either 2.2., 2200, 2.4, or eco.

or we could always refer to them as 3rd gen phase 1,2 ,3.

its not hard at all



Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:39 PM
nick asher wrote:
nick asher wrote:the engines not and it makes it hard to tell if somone saying they have a 3rd gen if taling abotu the 00-02 or the 03-05 why not makes it into is own


and doesnt that make the car a different car????


no it doesnt make it a different car. so going by this mentality, would a v6 eclipse be a different car when compared to a 4 cyl? (3rd gen eclipse) or would an ohv 95 cav be a different car when compared to a quad cav? i dont think so...



Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:40 PM
nick asher wrote:the engines not and it makes it hard to tell if somone saying they have a 3rd gen if taling abotu the 00-02 or the 03-05 why not makes it into is own

they put the eco in the 00-02 ls sports so the engine is the same. the changes made to the 03-05 werent drastic enough to merit its own generation. but it was a change so it got its own phase, gen 3 phase 3.




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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:42 PM
Regardless of engine, the frame is the same from 95-05. From 95-02 they had 4 different engines, but all the same generation. I can take a 95, and bolt ALL the parts from an 05 directly onto it, without body work. If you took the hood, headlights, engine, tranny, and trunklid off, all cars from 95-05 are virutally indistinguishable.


And its not like Dave chooses the generation desigination. Thats done by GM.





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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 1:44 PM
Shifted wrote:Regardless of engine, the frame is the same from 95-05. From 95-02 they had 4 different engines, but all the same generation. I can take a 95, and bolt ALL the parts from an 05 directly onto it, without body work. If you took the hood, headlights, engine, tranny, and trunklid off, all cars from 95-05 are virutally indistinguishable.


And its not like Dave chooses the generation desigination. Thats done by GM.


huh? so ur saying dave ISNT god?



Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 2:00 PM
Shifted wrote:Regardless of engine, the frame is the same from 95-05. From 95-02 they had 4 different engines, but all the same generation. I can take a 95, and bolt ALL the parts from an 05 directly onto it, without body work. If you took the hood, headlights, engine, tranny, and trunklid off, all cars from 95-05 are virutally indistinguishable.


And its not like Dave chooses the generation desigination. Thats done by GM.



Gm isnt god either so just make it a 3 nd on and only the 02 ls had the ecotec i beleave

Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 2:05 PM
Well, in the world of the Cavalier, GM is god. They made the designation from 95-05 to be 3rd gens. They are also the SAME FRAME AND UNIBODY. Engine changes, some sheetmetal, and some plastic don't justify a generation change.





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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 2:19 PM
GM and Dave are both god... death to all who challenge that statement!




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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 4:24 PM
if every car got a new "generation" designation every time an engine changed or a headlight changed, every car would have 30 generations. camaro would have AT LEAST 20 or so generations if you put in the dozen or so motors, "face lifts", and option changes. along with every other car thats changed anything...

generations are based on changes to the chasis, not minor changes to body work (face lifts) or engine changes.





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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:43 PM
Agreed, Dave IS God. Always remember that

Also... there were more engines in the third gen than that...

95 Quad 4 LD2
95-97 2.2L LN2 version 1
96-98 Twin Cam version 1
98-02 2200 2.2L LN2 version 2
99-02 Twin Cam version 2
03-05 Ecotec

In fact, there were even differences between the 03 and 04 Ecotec... so...

You can EASILY take everything from a 05 and put it in a 95. You can't easily swap any of that to a second gen (94) or a first gen.... so that makes the generations.

People DO refer to 95-99 as gen 3, phase 1... 00-02 as phase 2... 03-05 as phase 3... Just not very often. The majority of JBO forgets entirely about the first and second gens anyway.. so...





Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 6:43 PM
EliteCavy wrote:
nick asher wrote:the engines not and it makes it hard to tell if somone saying they have a 3rd gen if taling abotu the 00-02 or the 03-05 why not makes it into is own

they put the eco in the 00-02 ls sports so the engine is the same. the changes made to the 03-05 werent drastic enough to merit its own generation. but it was a change so it got its own phase, gen 3 phase 3.


Only put Eco's in late model 02's. Like me!



Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 7:25 PM
^^ my bad... you learn something new everyday.
Quote:

Agreed, Dave IS God. Always remember that

damn straight!




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Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 7:33 PM
No problemo!



Re: what about 03-05
Sunday, April 02, 2006 7:49 PM
Shifted wrote:Well, in the world of the Cavalier, GM is god. They made the designation from 95-05 to be 3rd gens. They are also the SAME FRAME AND UNIBODY. Engine changes, some sheetmetal, and some plastic don't justify a generation change.


it doesn't justify a generation change, but it does justify a phase change.

95-99 is third gen phase 1
00-02 is third gen phase 2 (different headlights, bumpers and tail lights)
03-05 is third gen phase 3 (different headlights, hood, bumpers, tails, etc)

minor changes like that are just phases, not a whole generation change.




Re: what about 03-05
Monday, April 03, 2006 7:12 AM
Minor changes my butt ! Different front end and rear ends. Different hood and different deck lid. Different drive train. Different brake systems. Different suspensions. And those are just off the top of my head. The only thing unchanged was the frame and the
1/4 panels.

I do agree that it should go by what GM says tho.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: what about 03-05
Monday, April 03, 2006 7:29 AM
Jackalope wrote:Minor changes my butt ! Different front end and rear ends. Different hood and different deck lid. Different drive train. Different brake systems. Different suspensions. And those are just off the top of my head. The only thing unchanged was the frame and the
1/4 panels.


only difference in the rear is the spoiler, the tails and the tail fillers on the bumper. as far as the brakes, only difference i know of is the slightly bigger rear drums. suspension, the only difference i noticed is the mounts. how are they soo different? am i missing something??







Re: what about 03-05
Monday, April 03, 2006 8:01 AM
The rear has a different trunk lid, tail lights, rear bumper, and trunk release. And as you noted the spoiler. The rears are bigger and the ABS systems are different. As for suspensions the bushings and spring rates and sway bars are different. Like I said they are different but I don't think it should make them a gen 4 car.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: what about 03-05
Monday, April 03, 2006 11:30 AM
I don't know the differences in 82-94 years, so I don't comment on them (usually).... but as far as that big list... in third gens.... what I'm aware of....

Front and rear ends (bumpers!)
95-99, had separate fillers under the tail lights above the bumpers
00-02, also changed the honeycomb/styrofoam piece underneath. Some early 2000's had the separate fillers, late 2000 I think it was, they were attached to the bumper itself.
03-05, all were attached to the bumper.

Hood
Cavalier, 95-02 was the same. 03-05 looks similar to the 95-02 Sunfire, but it's different.
Sunfire 95-02 the same, 03-05 different

Trunk lid
Same 95-05

Drivetrain
95 Quad 4 LD2
95-97 2.2L LN2 version 1
96-98 Twin Cam version 1
98-02 2200 2.2L LN2 version 2
99-02 Twin Cam version 2
03-05 Ecotec

Brakes
Front all the same 95-05
Rear same 95-02, 03-05 slightly bigger. Apparently this was an option to get bigger rear brakes in earlier years but I don't know of anyone that ever ordered them.

Suspension
Three levels, FE0, FE1, FE2. FE0 was the base model, no real handling, but comfort 95-02. FE1 was the mid-level models and convertibles, 95-05, became the base level for 03+, FE2 is the uplevel real handing package 95-05. The only real changes here were the strut mounts in mid-99.

How about the nitty gritty?

Body Control Module
95-99 cars used a convenience centre, and a lot of extra modules depending on installed options. The BCM, added in 2000, whole car re-wired to use Class 2 wiring. Body Control Module controls everything and eliminates a bunch of separate modules. Also makes modding the cars electronically a bit more challenging.

ABS
Was standard in all J-cars from 92-02. The ABS module is the same from 95-99. Changed in 00, now has external proportioning valves. ABS became an option in 03 model year, most came without it.

Airbags
95 uses DERM. Sensor inside car, and at front. Different module, everything than 96+. 96, 97 mostly interchangeable. 98, 99 again interchangeable. 00 is a unique year. 01-02 same again. Module and bags plugs change, you can't use a 96 bag in a 05 car. Well, you can if you know what you're doing but most people don't.

Fenders
95-02 Sunfire same.. 03-05 same.
Cavalier all LOOK the same, but slight differences. 95-99 there's a bracket welded to the fender inside that holds the corner light. 00-02 the bracket is gone, it's now bolted t the front inside the headlight area, and there's a tiny tab that the headlight fits into. 03-05 I don't know, because I can't remember what it looked like.. But I know it's not the same as the 00-02.

Interior options
Oh, so many. Teal, red, blue, pewter, medium gray, graphite, white vinyl. Red flecks, blue flecks. Cloth, up-level cloth, camo pattern so you can't see the stains, white so you can. Everything swaps 95-05 with a few modifications if you want the 60/40 split seat.

Bottom line is... there's nothing that won't easily swap 95-05 with minor modifications. Getting a 95 front end to fit on a 94 is a hell of a lot of work though.





Re: what about 03-05
Monday, April 03, 2006 12:05 PM
See like John said LOTS of differences!

And John sure you can slap a 04 cars front end on a 1985 car but it will look like ass!

Thats why its still considered a Gen 3 car cause even tho there may be differences the frame is the same.






Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: what about 03-05
Monday, April 03, 2006 9:23 PM
Take the 2nd gens for example..

Cavi 2nd gens have a Phase 1 and phase 2... the parts are interchangable as well, not seperate generations (otherwise the Cavi would be on the 4th Gen starting in 95)

Or G-Bodies -- The Cutlass Supreme went through a major styling change in 83 as well as 87 and 88. 87-88 went from sealed beam to composite headlights (and added the word "Classic" to the name), the front facia was different as well. Again, interchangable. Not a seperate generation. I can slap on either an 82 or 87 front end on my 83...

They came with their own share of power trains as well

The catch there is that I cannot change over the front ends from any of the other g-bodies (Buick Regal, Chevy El Camino/Monte Carlo (and SS)/or Pontiac Grand Prix) due to the body lines not matching up... however, they do bolt up just fine.

Anywho... for the real answer ask GM












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