Hey guys, have any of you heard anything regarding setups that allow you to put an External Wastegate on your downpipe? The way it was explained to me is that you put a block off plate/flange on the hotside outlet, and on the wastegate hole/flapper hole on a super 60 turbo would have the hole drilled out (no longer a block off plate) and have another small pipe welded to the plate to feed the exhaut that escapes from the hole to a wastegate, and then once circulated thru the WG it gets dumped back into the DP. Have any of you had any experience or heard any feedback on these setups? How do they co-operate with higher boost (20-30 psi from a t3/t4 hybrid or a super 60)?

Here's a link (albeit poor) to what Im talking about.
link

Basically on the hot side of a T3 super 60, you'd have two seperate pipes coming off of it forming a Y shape. One would be your downpipe coming off the main outlet, and the second would be a smaller pipe coming off the smaller wastegate/flapper hole. The second pipe/smaller pipe would then have an external wastegate on it which would circulate the exhaust gases that pass through it back into the Downpipe. Those block off plates that they use on ebay (the 5 bolt ones) that are intended for when people wanna use a t3 with an Ext. WG when the turbo originally uses an INT WG would need to be used, and a hole drilled/cut where the flapper hole is.

I kinda figured if the Buick guys/Grand National guys had this setup available in their aftermarket selection by companies like ATR and Hooker Headers, then it oughta be worth consideration, let alone I had never seen a setup like this before.

I'm just curious why you wanted to do this and not have it on your manifold?



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

When I found your Manifold for so cheap, I decided I couldnt pass that up, and would in turn go Internally wastegated. After browsing ebay, I found this alternative, as from what Ive been told, welding to cast can get tricky, ugly, and difficult. Do you seen any problems or issues with this setup?

Alero SS wrote:When I found your Manifold for so cheap, I decided I couldnt pass that up, and would in turn go Internally wastegated. After browsing ebay, I found this alternative, as from what Ive been told, welding to cast can get tricky, ugly, and difficult. Do you seen any problems or issues with this setup?

Well first, you mentioned the Super 60 then a T3/T4...I believe the Super 60s are internally wastegated, T3/T4s aren't...do you know which route you want to go?

The guy who made my manifold can make it with an external wastegate extension or not with one on the manifold.



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I was asking about the hybrid in regards to a friend of mine's setup later down the line. I personally will be using the Super 60, with the int. wg. The guy who made your manifold made it outta steel rather than the cast material that the manifold I'll be using (the one I bought off you - and just left feedback for on ebay btw) is composed of. It can be done, but it aint the nicest or best way of goin about if I wanted to venture down this route.

Alero SS wrote:I was asking about the hybrid in regards to a friend of mine's setup later down the line. I personally will be using the Super 60, with the int. wg. The guy who made your manifold made it outta steel rather than the cast material that the manifold I'll be using (the one I bought off you - and just left feedback for on ebay btw) is composed of. It can be done, but it aint the nicest or best way of goin about if I wanted to venture down this route.

When you say my manifold, do you mean the one I just had in my possession or the one I sold on ebay?



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The Ebay one I bought off you is the one I'll be running. The one that I mentioned you have is the custom made log one you have in your posession right now, which is steel not cast.

Alero SS wrote:The Ebay one I bought off you is the one I'll be running. The one that I mentioned you have is the custom made log one you have in your posession right now, which is steel not cast.

Ok, so you're using the one I sent you...now, you want to use the Super 60 which should be internally wastegated, you shouldn't have to worry about an external one.

By the way, thanks for the good feedback



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

No problem, a good transaction inturn receives good feedback, and I really appreciated your help and quick responses (and patience :p)

But back to the situation at hand, I realize that the super 60 is designed to be internally wastegated, but i could take off the dump pipe housing that has the flapper arm in it, and put on one of those blocking plates/flanges. Im jsut wondering if anyone has tried this setup, or could forsee any problems?

This is the sorta block off flange that Id use, but Id have a hole cut for the wastegate port with for the wastegate piping. Linklink

Alero SS wrote:No problem, a good transaction inturn receives good feedback, and I really appreciated your help and quick responses (and patience :p)

But back to the situation at hand, I realize that the super 60 is designed to be internally wastegated, but i could take off the dump pipe housing that has the flapper arm in it, and put on one of those blocking plates/flanges. Im jsut wondering if anyone has tried this setup, or could forsee any problems?

This is the sorta block off flange that Id use, but Id have a hole cut for the wastegate port with for the wastegate piping. Linklink

It's no problem, I'm real patient with people and car questions.

So basically, you want to convert to external wastegate?



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Basically, yes, if this route doesnt seem to be too problematic or unreliable, for almost the same price as buying a internal wastegate actuator, and not needing to worry about spikes, etc, I could go with an External Wastegate, and have more control, and use better components. But if this is a @!#$ty way of going about it, I wont bother, and just stick with an internal wastegate actuator to regulate boost.

p.s. I also have a buddy with access to a water & laser cutter, so the flanges, and if need be, copper gaskets would not be difficult at all to obtain for this setup.

Alero SS wrote:Basically, yes, if this route doesnt seem to be too problematic or unreliable, for almost the same price as buying a internal wastegate actuator, and not needing to worry about spikes, etc, I could go with an External Wastegate, and have more control, and use better components. But if this is a @!#$ty way of going about it, I wont bother, and just stick with an internal wastegate actuator to regulate boost.

p.s. I also have a buddy with access to a water & laser cutter, so the flanges, and if need be, copper gaskets would not be difficult at all to obtain for this setup.

I believe spiking is more prone to not having as good of an wastegate. There are plenty of people who run an internal wastegate who are totally fine...I think that should be the last of your worries.

Run the Super 60 with the internal wastegate and be problem free. As long as you get a REAL Garrett Turbo, you should be fine.



www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837

Alright, yes, this setup is pretty common among the DIY-ers. But, that doesn't mean it's a good solution... You are greatly disrupting the exhaust flow RIGHT before the turbine, not the best thing. Also, the hole would still be about the same size as it was with the external wastegate, so flow wouldn't be improved much, so you would still probably have to deal with spiking (At higher pressures, any larger turbo using an internal wastegate would have issues with spiking). Having an external wastegate flange welded on your mani is a much better plan of attack (unless your mani is cast of course), and shouldn't cost much at all.
Also, you mentioned 20-30 psi on a super60? NOT A GOOD IDEA. That throws that turbo well out of it's efficiency range, and you wouldn't be able to keep intake temps from skyrocketing.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

I'd skip that kind of setup, and just have a wastegate flange welded to your manifold. You wont have much room to run that style setup anyway.




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making the wg part of the dp s actually very easy.

a descent amount of guys i know run their setup that way.

now if i am thinking right wouldn't there be NO point to having the wastegate on the downpipe, the wastegate needs to go before the turbo turbo to release the pressure

as far as I know he is not planning on running 20-30lbs on a T3 super 60.

has anyone tried this method? Like OHVnotec said, you're limited to the amount of boost you can run by the size of the port oulet of the WG. You'd end up with the same boost spike problems that you get with internal wg's.

Its possible you might be able to 'port' that out slightly to allow for more exhaust flow, but I haven't looked into it further. any thoughts on that?

seems to me that it would be a LOT easier to just buy a mani that already has an external wg provision than to try welding the cast iron housing (which can be very tricky, if the person doing the welding the wall into the turbine outlet doesn't get it just right either they will warp the housing or it won't get enough penetration and crack and fall out resulting in no boost).

To be honest, for the purpose of a street driven J, an external wastegate simply is not necessary. For a setup of under 300 hp i dare say that its a pointless and expensive exercise. At best its what, an extra $100, then you have extra fab work to do for a dp, which if you can't weld yourself, will cost more than an internally gated dp, the mani is slightly more expensive, and all for what? No boost creep? Newsflash, boost creep really doesn't happen at 6-10 psi like most people here run. Even still, for the amount of money you spend on an external setup, you can buy a die grinder from harbor freight for $20, a few grinding bits for $5, and port the wg yourself, done.

Sure, it looks/sounds cool, but bling factor won't necessarily make your car any faster, or run any better.




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'Nuff said

Im not quite sure you guys understand the setup that I will be using/intended to use. First off, MY MANIFOLD IS CAST so the chance for adaptation is slim because there is VERY little room on the SAAB manifold, and not nearly enough to weld on an external wg or flange for one. Secondly, there will be ABSOLUTELY NO welding on the turbo housing itself. On the hotside, there is the option to attach a 5 bolt elbow, or you can get a flange that is the exact same outline and weld on your own bends. it looks like this link. This would be bolted onto the hot side, and my piping would be welded to that (with an additional hole cut in the flange to accomodate the wastegate port). The wastegate, if you chose to open the pictures/links I included places the wastegate anywhere from 6-8 or more inches down the line from the turbine, so as OHV notec said, I would NOT be greatly disrupting the exhaust flow RIGHT before the turbine. Having said this, Im hoping you guys have a clearer Idea of what I was considering, and less objections.

Im just wondering if this is gonna be more risky than a internal wastegate setup, or not. Dont worry about the additional costs, and please dont advise me to just go with a different manifold. A different manifold right now is outta the question. Also, as Stevefire mentioned would porting be a viable option to enlarge the wastegate port on the hotside housing?

Alero SS wrote:Im not quite sure you guys understand the setup that I will be using/intended to use. First off, MY MANIFOLD IS CAST so the chance for adaptation is slim because there is VERY little room on the SAAB manifold, and not nearly enough to weld on an external wg or flange for one. Secondly, there will be ABSOLUTELY NO welding on the turbo housing itself. On the hotside, there is the option to attach a 5 bolt elbow, or you can get a flange that is the exact same outline and weld on your own bends. it looks like this link. This would be bolted onto the hot side, and my piping would be welded to that (with an additional hole cut in the flange to accomodate the wastegate port). The wastegate, if you chose to open the pictures/links I included places the wastegate anywhere from 6-8 or more inches down the line from the turbine, so as OHV notec said, I would NOT be greatly disrupting the exhaust flow RIGHT before the turbine. Having said this, Im hoping you guys have a clearer Idea of what I was considering, and less objections.

Im just wondering if this is gonna be more risky than a internal wastegate setup, or not. Dont worry about the additional costs, and please dont advise me to just go with a different manifold. A different manifold right now is outta the question. Also, as Stevefire mentioned would porting be a viable option to enlarge the wastegate port on the hotside housing?

I think I understand what you're saying but I just personally wouldn't go through the headache to convert to an external wastegate when you'll be fine internally. Plus, I think by time you want to reach your 20 PSI+ mark, you should upgrade your turbo to some big boy stuff like ball bearing turbos and then you can change your manifold.

That's just my opinion. For low PSI on stock internals...you'll be fine internal.



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look guys, on a 5 bolt style exhaust housing you can buy flanges that are specifically for this. it is no different than running the wg off the manifold itself.

you are just drawing the exhaust through the internal wg hole on the exhaust housing, if i were you and you planned on doing this, id port the stock wg hole as close to 38mm as possible.

if you needed a flange to wg adapter setup, i know exactly what you are tlakign about nd i could easily make one for you.

Ok, since AleroSS is a personal freind of mine and I have been the push behind this project from day one and most likely will be doing most of the work, I must disagree with some of you on some things.

A- The Internally wastegated T3 is POS, any GN person will tell you that external is the way to go. Being that it has a very poor 90* bend and how the wastegate actually dumps back into the exhuast stream this cause an great amount of turbulance aft the Turbo, this is not good either, you want smooth flowing exhaust aft the turbo as much as you want it before.

B- I've used the T3 in question, I used it to take my car to 13.50 @ 103.9 mph non IC'd and in a car weighing 3700 plus pounds on street tires using only 6PSI. I drive a Turbo Charged 3.8 Litre 98 Grand Prix FYI. The AR on this Turbo was 60/61, and I had a brand new external wastegate actuater installed right from Garret, the Turbo itself was also brand new, it was a basic bearing type Turbo though unfortunatly.

Now the issue I had all the time was boost spikeing, this was common, it would boost up to 10 psi and fall back to 6-7psi, there were no leaks, never could find out the issue. Redid the whole setup countless times, this means new custom exhaust manifolds etc. Again there was no IC to interfere and thus I should not have been getting a boost spike at all.

In the end it turned out to be the Internally wastegated Super 60 T3, this was found out by actually talking to my GN freinds who have also had the same issues with this turbo. Now there is a solution to this if you want to keep it Internal and that is to buy a GN style aftermarket Plate and bend, it is redesigned to make much better and cleaner flow.

There is also no reason to have the wastegate gas flowing back into the exhaust stream, almost all GN guys wastegate the gas to the atmosphere as so do I. I know in some states in the US this would nullify your emissions 10 fold, but here we do not have these issues. By doing this you have a clean exhaust stream aft the turbo, which is very important as you want to get those gasses out as fast as possible. Not cause a jam right aft the Turbo.

Externally wastegated is truly the way to go, it is 10 times more adjustable, 10 times more reliable ( if you buy quality parts ) and it is easy to install if you have the know how which luckily I have, this AleroSS has access to this aswell.


We have been over his design 20 times, at first we were going to make a custom true header style, we still have all the bends for this in fact. Then we were going to do the log style some of you use, I do not like this style as it is very inefficiant unless you actually direct the exhaust in the tube so all of your 4 cylinders is working at pushing out its own gases equally. You definalty do not want to have the two of your cylinders of your 4 fighting to exit its exhaust gases as you will then have blowback and you risk over heating these cylinders.

Anyway as for who I am and why I am sitting here preaching with 1 post, well, lets just say I have one of the most modded TurboGP's in North America and have been doing this for the past 7 years, The Turbo Project that is. I know what works with the T3 as I have 6 years experiance with it alone, the other year I finally switched to a much more agresive setup and stepped up to a T-70 and am now pushing 26 PSI instead of the little 6psi I was with the T3, also with the T3 for me, I got loads of knock, with the T70 I get zero and thats at 4 times the boost I was running before. This is also in part to do with the efficiancy of my set up now, which is why I am stateing that external is the way to go.


Also when you are not under boost the wastegate if sized right, is closed anyway, so you do not get any difference in sound while driving normally with it exiting to the atmophere. And when you tromp on it, yes the wastegate opens, but with all the other things roaring in your little engine, you are not going to hear it anyway.