first let me say: i already searched for this topic and came up with nothing.
ok, now that thats out of the way....my friend was telling me that i should do a turbo + supercharger setup. the way it would work, is the SC provides constant power up to a certain RPM, then right as the SC shuts off the turbo spools and kicks on.
is it possible to do this setup on a 2.4L engine fully built with all internals, piping, intercooler, etc?
thanks for the help guys.
-Cameron (CaliforniaCavalier)
Girls make me mad and break my heart, but my car is always there for me.
Roots or centrifigal supercharger?
My experience is with the Roots (GM kit)
the supercharger doesn't really "shut off", it keeps on cramming air in all the way up the rpm range. It will help supply better throttle response on the bottom, helping hide the turbo lag.
This setup could work nicely, superchargers in particular work on a pressure differential, for example, the output side is a multiple of the input side (like 1.5, i.e. if the input was at 10 psi, the output would be 15 psi). So if you have the turbo (intercooler) outlet going into the supercharger input, you can conceivably crank up the boost.
Rough bit: with the air compressed that much more, the intake charge has the potential to get quite warm. You DEFINITELY want an intercooler after the turbo before it feeds into the supercharger (assuming roots setup)
I'd definitely say that it's possible. Complicated, yes, but possible. Expensive too.
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Sleeper style, they don't see it coming that way.
I am working on this set up right now.. and it is not as easy as put the two on... my dad is still doing calculation after calculation... and he is a engineer that deals with compressors every day and still is taking this long... probably wont be going in untill x-mas as we want every thing figured out...
And its not like the supercharger will stop and then the turbo kicks in.. the turbo will be compressing the air.. then put threw the supercharger and compressed some more... And finding a turbo that will flow enough is not easy either... you need to know what Air flow you need.. and the pressure ratio just to find the turbo.. then you need to know aprox how much heat every thing is going to make and in our case we have it pretty close and now we are calculating how much the intercooler will actualy cool the air and exactly what psi loss there will be and ect.... aaha too much to explain... just to give you an example here is only 1 part to this... each number has tones tones of calculations to it as well
Case 4 - 2.8" pulley
1.32 SC Compresion Ratio
0.75 Turbo efficiency
6.50 psig turbo outlet
1.46 Turbo comp. ratio
1.75 psid pipe loss
4.8 pisg sc inlet
80.0 oF tcr inlet
161.6 oF tc outlet
81.6 oF sc inlet
0.1035 lb/ft3 - sc inlet
13814.4 M45 rpm
365.9 actual ft3/min - air
37.9 lb/min - air (actual)
36.9 lb/min - air (corr)
3.0 lb/min - fuel
483.1 cc/min injectors
312.0 hp @ crank
275.9 hp @ wheel
10.8 psig engine inlet
144.7 oF engine inlet
Downstream Gauge Pressure: 6.5 psig 45 kPag
Standard Flow: 0.094 MMscfd 0.003 MMscmd
Actual Flow: 0.80 acfs 0.02 m3/s
Temperature: 81.6 oF 27.6 oC
Pressure Drop (Darcy Equation): 0.0008 psi 0.0057 kPa
Gas Velocity: 4.4 ft/s 1.36 m/s
Ambient Pressure: 14.3 psia 98.250 kPa-abs
Absolute Pressure*: 20.8 psia 143.1 kPa-abs
Elevation: 841.2 ft 256.4 m
Compressibility Factor (Z) : 1.000 1.000
Process Density (kg/m3): 0.1035 lb/ft3 1.659 kg/m3
Standard Density (kg/m3): 0.0764 lb/ft3 1.223 kg/m3
Specific Gravity: 1.000 1.000
Dynamic (m): 0.0103 cP 10.29E-6 Pa(s)
Reynold Number (Re): 31.94E+3 31.94E+3
Weymouth Friction Factor (f): 17.85E-3 17.85E-3
Mean Pressure: 20.7 psia 143.1 kPa-abs
and this isnt even close to a quarter of the calculations
but it is possible...
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
haha....... just pick up an issue of Sport Compact Car...... they covered it all in a few pages
Good luck on it, if I had a GM charger for cheap, I'd do it............
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
Suck Squish Bang Blow!
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
yea anythign can be done........good job for you....hyuck
twin charged mini
I'm still looking for the issue about the twin charging....
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
Here is my best advice. Pick the right size turbocharger and do your research, and build a good turbo kit, and you would never have to worry about the low end vs high end gains because they would never outweigh each other.
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
Jeff H,
Lets see some
equations for multi-staged compression and effective pressure ratio through both chargers, it
still looks like you're simply adding them. Then we can compare a properly sized turbo that will do the same exact thing, at half the cost.
Quote:
10.8 psig engine inlet
If that is all you're aiming for then why in gods name would you spend twice the dough for a dual setup?????
What is this business about not finding a turbo that flows enough air???
Josh F wrote:I am working on this set up right now.. and it is not as easy as put the two on... my dad is still doing calculation after calculation... and he is a engineer that deals with compressors every day and still is taking this long... probably wont be going in untill x-mas as we want every thing figured out...
not to bust your balls (or your pop's), but dont over complicate (engineer) things. We did x amount of calculations for a senior design project that dealt with the fabrication of a turbo header and system. here we had a computer engineer, mechanical engineer (specializing in design), and another mechanical engineer (specializing in thermodynamics). In the end there was alot of useless calcualtions that amounted to nothing common sense couldn't take care of.
also, some of the calculations (which some are measurements) that you listed are very trivial which any second year degree seeking engineer can calculate.
...stop over engineering things, just get 'er done!
I don't get it? What exactly are you calculating? Where is the engineering? In the end, all you are doing with adding the turbo is the same thing you would do if there was no supercharger on the engine at all. Just throw a turbo on and try it out, it is that simple. There are way too many variables to the equation that are going to be skipped over.
Also think of this. The inefficient side of supercharging is the drive system. The supercharger compresses the air at bottom of the screws... we all know how it works..... belt slip can be pretty bad with a charger. Imagine how much worse it is going to be with actual positive pressure at the inlet of the screws. I think you are better off adding more air to the equation by trying to further chill the air and increasing the density at the inlet instead of increasing pressure.
If it were me, I'd try some sort of A/C system driven off of an electric motor with the evaporator core in the intake ducting.
Cardomain|
Myspace
ANything is possible with the right aplication of MONEY
Excidium wrote:What is this business about not finding a turbo that flows enough air???
With this set up i need a turbo that will flow around 35-40lbs/min of air... find me a T3 turbo that will do this...
paco loco wrote:not to bust your balls (or your pop's), but dont over complicate (engineer) things. We did x amount of calculations for a senior design project that dealt with the fabrication of a turbo header and system. here we had a computer engineer, mechanical engineer (specializing in design), and another mechanical engineer (specializing in thermodynamics). In the end there was alot of useless calcualtions that amounted to nothing common sense couldn't take care of.
also, some of the calculations (which some are measurements) that you listed are very trivial which any second year degree seeking engineer can calculate.
...stop over engineering things, just get 'er done!
Yes i can agree with you some and my dad knows alot of them arent nessesary but in some/most cases he needed the simple numbers to get other ones that are needed...
and yes i am going to get it done and see how it turns out... if i fail ill let you guys know... but if i get this working ahaha oh it will be sweet to hear the coments from thoughs who say this wont work
M I N I O N - Sinbird wrote:I don't get it? What exactly are you calculating? Where is the engineering? In the end, all you are doing with adding the turbo is the same thing you would do if there was no supercharger on the engine at all. Just throw a turbo on and try it out, it is that simple. There are way too many variables to the equation that are going to be skipped over.
Also think of this. The inefficient side of supercharging is the drive system. The supercharger compresses the air at bottom of the screws... we all know how it works..... belt slip can be pretty bad with a charger. Imagine how much worse it is going to be with actual positive pressure at the inlet of the screws. I think you are better off adding more air to the equation by trying to further chill the air and increasing the density at the inlet instead of increasing pressure.
If it were me, I'd try some sort of A/C system driven off of an electric motor with the evaporator core in the intake ducting.
well i dont know how much belt slipage i will have with the stock 2.8" on there... And no i wont be getting the same thing in the end... the supercharger is a positive displacement unit (we all know) and there for all the compressed air from the turbo is going to go threw that supercharger... and not only go threw but will be compressed again... so no it wont be the same thing...
ecotechtuner (Seth) wrote:ANything is possible with the right aplication of MONEY
Your right... hence why i am not doing all the tuning... im doing as much as i can then its off to the shop here in calgary that tunes both my dads cars... and let them do the rest of the tuning
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Use a 50 trim T3/TO4E.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Thats the hybrid right? if so thats the one i picked out... well there is one other one that would put me in right in the center of the map but i think the case will be to big to fit between the fire wall and engine...
here is the one that i think is to big but would put me in good efficiency range (around 78-79
Turbo
and its the 62-1 ...
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Why not make a bypass valve for when the turbo air is slowly entered into the tb while the s/c air is slowly being bypass toward the range where turbo shows a better net gain. The turbo is bypassed in the lower range and the s/c is bypassed in the higher rpm's.
Josh F wrote:Thats the hybrid right? if so thats the one i picked out... well there is one other one that would put me in right in the center of the map but i think the case will be to big to fit between the fire wall and engine...
here is the one that i think is to big but would put me in good efficiency range (around 78-79
Turbo
and its the 62-1 ...
Yes a T3/TO4E is a hybrid turbo, a T3 turbine and a T4 compressor.
A 62-1 !!! Thats a BIG turbo, unless you plan to make over
600whp its probably a lot more that you are looking for.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Quote:
oh it will be sweet to hear the coments from thoughs who say this wont work
People have been compounding turbos since the early 1900's. This is nothing new. Nobody is saying it will not work. The question is how much better will it work than a proper single turbo setup, for your power goals. Since you're not using the compound setup for what its truly meant for -- being very high boost pressures -- it doesn't make sense when you can achieve your power goals VERY easily and VERY efficiently with a single turbo.
In retrospect, I think I'm talking to the wrong person here. Why don't you get your dad to elaborate on the plans for the car? Understand, this forum is full of people that talk a lot, but give no proof and offer no reasons. Right now, you're one of those people.
Spotabee Racing (The Fake Z24) wrote:Here is my best advice. Pick the right size turbocharger and do your research, and build a good turbo kit, and you would never have to worry about the low end vs high end gains because they would never outweigh each other.
Why take an efficent turbo and use an ineffiecient supercharger. The charger may add 5 psi but it will super heat the intake charge and create a restriction. Just buy a good sized ball bearing turbo. It will spool quick and make the same boost without the heat.
SPDDMON wrote:Spotabee Racing (The Fake Z24) wrote:Here is my best advice. Pick the right size turbocharger and do your research, and build a good turbo kit, and you would never have to worry about the low end vs high end gains because they would never outweigh each other.
Why take an efficent turbo and use an ineffiecient supercharger. The charger may add 5 psi but it will super heat the intake charge and create a restriction. Just buy a good sized ball bearing turbo. It will spool quick and make the same boost without the heat.
My advice was not to do both, but to do turbo only.
I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.
I guess we all have our own opinions...
I want somthing original... so why not? im taking a risk of it not working at all.. but if it doesnt thats fine... ill just end getting a cavalier and putting the turbo on it and having 2 boosted jbodys... as they are cheap as dirt out here.... but i got a local shop willing to help me out from start to finish with any parts i need and they have looked over the stuff we have done so far and they thing every thing is all acounted for and it just needs the tuning which they will do...
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
alright....who said you could post the pics of my girl? thats my baby and no one else can have it
I LOVE THAT CAR!!!! looks even cooler in person. car is, as the yuggins say, TITS!!!
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
