Hey, i looked around and i couldnt find anyone talking about this so here it goes...
Im building my turbo kit with my friend from random parts all over the net
Its more money this way, but i get all of the parts that i want and I get to learn a lot along the way... I ordered everything today after a few days of research here on j-body.... great stuff on this forum
I was just wondering.... I didnt want get an intercooler initailly... it is cheaper and easier to set up water injection and i was wondering how much boost i can push with ONLY water injection for cooling... (given i have the proper fuel mods) any clue?? would it be the same preformance difference as getting an intercooler?
Some info to help you guys answer my question:
I have an 05 Sunfire Ecotec 2.2L
I plan on getting this 60trim with a .63 exhuast housing-
http://www.kineticmotorsport.com/catalog/garrett-t3t4-trim-p-995.html
Tial 38mm wastegate
this manifold
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8061499682&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT
bosch green tops 42lbs (like the ford green tops, i heard they were the same)
and hptuners
the water injection company is called coolingmist or something... my friend has it on his srt4.... 150 psi pump... i think its like 200 bucks
everything is purchased so im not looking to hear how horrible it is, lol... just wondering how much boost i can run under these circumstances...
No Cooling Method:
CoolingMist installed:
Intercooler installed:
CoolingMist and Intercooler Installed:
Thanks guys! Im sure you will be able to help me out...
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
oh yea... and a aeromotive afpr p/n 13107 with 1:1 boost reference... and some ngk plugs...
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
some people run water injection instead of intercoolers all the time, its a great way to reduce intake temps..i would still suggest make an HP and do what you need to hit that goal..it that means built motor, intercooler, big turbo and water injection...if you got the money do what you want,
it wouldn't really be to expensive to put in an intercooler, depending on if your doing all the work yourself (welding charge pipes and stuff). i know you can get a nice intercooler from johnyracecar for a couple hundred i believe, and either way you have to have charge pipes welded up, this would just be a bit more, so i can't imagine it would be horribly expensive to go this route.
nice to know that i could run just the coolingmist.... the cost is not as big of an issue as much as running the pipes... it would just be easier for my initial setup to run a pipe from the turbo to the throttle body and tap in the water injection into that... my initial setup wont have an intercooler or water injection...
how mush boost is safe with neither? and when i get the water injection how much boost would be safe?
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
have you read the boost faq theres a lot of good stuff there. btw you really should get an intercooler. its wort it and its got plenty more cooling potential then water inj setup
"
Kick azz is my boost hero!!! 
"
yea... i read the faqs... like 5 days ago when i decided to go turbo'ed... the piping is gunna be a bitch.... i cant find any pics of a setup on my ecotec... and i had my hood opened and i was under my car and i cant invision how the heck to run 2.5 inch pipes to the inside of my engine bay from the from of the radiator!
I was just wondering how effective the water injection was... in comparision to not having anything at all... initially i am only going to run like 6psi non intercooled... and down then a few weeks later get water injection and then a few weeks later get an intercooler...
does anyone know how much more boost i can run after getting the water injection? i plan on 6psi non intercooled or water injected... just straight from the turbo to the throttle body... and then maybe 8psi when i get the water injection....
does that sound realistic? (assuming all fuel mods are ok)
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
why not just do it the right way and get an intercooler to begin with. if your planning on getting one like not even a month later, then why not just get it right now so you don't have to redo the piping. i would say do it right the first time and call it good. but its your car and maybe you want it done now and cheaper just in case you run into money problems. w/e the reason, good luck with the project.
you guys realize that a water injection set-up is as good, if not better than a air to air intercooler...and you can control the temp alot better...
ummm... money would be why i would run nothing to begin with! this stuff is expensive
I would just run a pipe from the turbo to the t/b for a few weeks until i can tap that pipe with a coolingmist or devilsown water injection kit
i guess there are so many factors invovled in what determines how much boost i can run with no intercooler (given the fuel is all good) that no one can give me a number on how much i can run with no water injection or intercooler... i was thinking 6psi, but i wasnt sure if any boost was safe with no cooling method...
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
i would just wait until youhave all the parts to install how you want to.
if you install it all now without IC or Water injection you have a high possibility of blowing the motor up which in the end will cost you more..
i know at 5 psi the hot side of my charge pipes get fairly hot and would hate to see that air go into the motor, as it would probably burn the rings really quickly
in the faq it says i can run 6-8 lbs not intercooled as long as i have the proper timing and fuel mods....
2.4 / 2.2 Ecotec
6-8 PSI Non-Intercooled with proper fuel and timing mods
8-12 PSI Intercooled with proper fuel and timing mods
....
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
it will all depend on what your injecting... i use windshield washer fluid mixed with pure methanol (with a bit of this special lube for when using pure methanol) which i just get from my dad since he uses just the methanol and it works great... you can also just use straight windshield washer fluid and i found that worked really good as well... and you with that you wont have to worry about adding lubricants since it doesn't have enough alcohol to dry seals out but still has enough to help out more with cooling...
i know when i used it with just the supercharger and the 2.6" pulley i went from only being able to get like 6psi of boost to 9-10psi of boost... with just windshield washer fluid
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
how do you plan on controlling timing to make the proper timing and fuel adj. to run with no intercooler.
i'm pretty sure the only was is to run full standalone, or an MSD box....but both those would cost more than an intercooler and/or water injection
Volumeking333(Ryan) wrote:you guys realize that a water injection set-up is as good, if not better than a air to air intercooler...and you can control the temp alot better...
I really dont know about that. whats the higest boost someone has run with out knockin on alky or meth. depending on the car and boost levels you can usually get an intercooler that will keep temps down to a point where its really not a problem. also like I said if you put together an icebox setup youll pwn all. wish someone would post charge temps at different boost levels alky/vs intercooler. so we could get a good look at the difference other wise this is kind of a pointless argument.
"
Kick azz is my boost hero!!! "
9-10 psi with just meth injection is terrific for me, lol... im running a turbo not a s/c... and i am getting hptuners! It shipped today... thats how i plan on controlling the timing and controlling the 42lb bosch injectors i got as well... thats all for fuel mods, except for the aeromotive afpr... i heard from shifted that it should be a good set up for up to about 15 psi (limited by the injectors)
My only concern right now is the temp... i was only gunna run 5 lbs and raise as i get more cooling methods installed
I was going to run straight window washer fuild... the special one with methanol in it... my friend has the setup and he knows about it more then me
Thats a good idea
to have a temp gauge before the T/B to see what the temp is of the air going into the engine... what temp is good? and at what point is it bad? is that something that hptuners could see?
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
hpt should be able to read the IAT sensor
Jcavi wrote:Volumeking333(Ryan) wrote:you guys realize that a water injection set-up is as good, if not better than a air to air intercooler...and you can control the temp alot better...
I really dont know about that. whats the higest boost someone has run with out knockin on alky or meth. depending on the car and boost levels you can usually get an intercooler that will keep temps down to a point where its really not a problem. also like I said if you put together an icebox setup youll pwn all. wish someone would post charge temps at different boost levels alky/vs intercooler. so we could get a good look at the difference other wise this is kind of a pointless argument.
well with my experiences on 2 of ours cars with alky injection.. i would say Volumeking333 is right about it being just as good as an air to air intercooler
my car : went from 6psi to 10psi with the same pulley on the supercharger with alky injection (graneted the s/c'er wasnt even intercooled but yea)
our GNX : went from about 18psi with a fair amount of knock and with just alcohol injection was able to run 25psi with out knock and this is with a intercooler at both levels..
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
