I've been researching a 3400 swap for months now, and i came across this:

3500 3.5L V6 (LZ4)

Horsepower: 224 @ 5800 rpm

Torque: 220 @ 4000 rpm

Applications: Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Monte Carlo, Saturn Aura, Pontiac G6
Features: Variable Valve Timing
U Flow Cooling, E85 Capable
Configuration: Overhead Valves (2 valves per cylinder)
Displacement: 3510cc

my question is: anyone have info or knowledge on the transmission requirements for this engine? and would this swap require a custom sub frame like a 3800?

seems like a pretty fun build at the least... i'm just starting my Automotive Service Technition training so i'm not an expert but my prof has already said he'd help with a swap next semester so i'm getting rdy to start collecting parts

current set up is a 96 2200 lol

found a 2007 3500 LZ4 from a junk yard here for $800 Canadian with only 6k on it lol...

discuss

http://www.gminsidenews.com/index.php?page=Engine_Guide <--- scroll down
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High_Value_engine#LZ4 <--- wiki info

as far as I know with the 3400...... you can put a 3500 top end on it

not positive though.... but if thats true theres a possibility

ignoring the transmission uncertanties its about a 50 HP upgrade from the 3400 and 20ish increase over a S/c Colbalt ... easy to get excited over this stuff but to me it seems worth the bit of extra work....?

Check the sticky on V6 swap. The 3500 will swap in using some 3400 parts. For all of the info on 3500 swapping into a 3400 or 3100 application, check the 3500 swap questions thread on 60degreeV6.com. The 3500 swap wise has plenty of similarities to the 3400 and 3100 that it can easily be put into a J-body.

makes me wonder why i've only seen 3100s 3400s and 3800s in 3rd gens ?

Well, for starters, there are only a handful of us with V6 3rd gen cars so far. More and more are going to be doing the swap, so you will eventually see 3500's start to pop up. It's a very do-able swap. You just have to decide if you're going to try to get the 3500 electronics to work in our cars, or swap over the components (timing cover, crank pulley, throttle body, and a few other small items) to use the 3400 electronics with the 3500 engine.

The guys with the 2nd gen cars that do anything with a 3500 use the one without VVT. I think the RPO code is LX9 (not sure on that one). Also to run even the non-vvt model without a factory PCM that came with the engine, you'll need to run an external crank trigger with it because new engines use a 52x reluctor wheel on the crank, ours (3100, 3400, 2200, stuff like that) use a 7x wheel. Old PCM's wont pick up the signal right.

60degreev6.com has this trigger and they're also going to be a million times more knowledgeable about how to set that engine up to run in an appreciative manner than we are going to be.

The 3500 swap goes in the same way as a 3400 swap does. The only thing I am uncertain about is the accessories. One problem you will run into is the stock rods in a 3500. Where the 3400 uses forged steel rods, the 3500 uses powdered rods. These rods can barely handle the stock 200hp/220tq, let alone with a power adder. One of the great things about the new 3500 motor though is the crank. There is debate whether or not the crank is forged, but it is deffinately heavier than a 3400 crank an looks identical (almost.) Although the 3500 has the same exact stroke as a 3400, the 3500 has larger rod journals which can be offset ground to accept the stock 3400 rods and increase the dissplacement to a 3600. Unfortunately, the 3900 uses different deck spacing than a standard 660. Nobody has tried swapping one of the 3900 based vvt motors yet so there is not much known. It is possible to deleted VVT though....... LX9 is the right code for the 3500 non vvt based on 3400.



Cardomain|Myspace

For the increased displacement of the 3500, don't they have an offset bore as well? Which is why the 3500 crank can't be swapped into a 3400.

The offset bore is on the 3900. Mostly with the 3500 it's the journal size. Although I have heard that they may have offset the bore on the VVT version.

yes, the vvt version is base off of the 3900 engine. The non-vvt engine is based off of a 3400, the cranks CAN be swapped over but the new crank uses a 52x reluctor wheel where as the 3400 (before 2005) uses a 7x reluctor wheel so sequential injection can't be kept unless you go stand-alone.



Cardomain|Myspace

Hey I am getting ready to swap my 99 cavalier 2.2 with the 3400 engine any available info would be great i.e. wiring diagrams engine mount info etc thanks - jon claseisgod@hotmail.com

Someone should make a sticky with that info.

M I N I O N - Sinbird wrote:yes, the vvt version is base off of the 3900 engine. The non-vvt engine is based off of a 3400, the cranks CAN be swapped over but the new crank uses a 52x reluctor wheel where as the 3400 (before 2005) uses a 7x reluctor wheel so sequential injection can't be kept unless you go stand-alone.

I guess it wouldnt be so much of a problem if you have some sort of press so you can change that reluctor ring huh?
I know the engine wont run with the 52x wheel. And if you're going with MS-II or an OBD-I setup it's easy enough to get the external crank trigger from 60degreev6. Apparently it works pretty good.

so just to clarify...if i decided to run the LX9 3500 which is not based on the 3900 but rather the 3400...


what reluctor wheel would i be dealing with? the 52X or a 7x?

and if it is the 52X... the external crank trigger from 60degreev6 is all u need to make it work? or would i need a 7x reluctor wheel and the external crank?

(can u tell i dont know what these damn things do???...but thats ok..only 3 weeks into my AST course )

i'm setting up for a January/February swap so i'm just looking to start collecting parts. and i plan on keeping all u v6 cavy guys updated with my progress

note: new soup can and eibach pro kit...going on next week

this is the link btw http://www.60degreev6.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=42 for the external crank trigger

Seriously, read the 3500 swap on 60degreeV6.com. It will answer all your questions regarding using a 3500 in place of a 3400.

yeah i would be all over that but i am finding it rather difficult to track down....

Nick Oliver wrote:so just to clarify...if i decided to run the LX9 3500 which is not based on the 3900 but rather the 3400...


what reluctor wheel would i be dealing with? the 52X or a 7x?

and if it is the 52X... the external crank trigger from 60degreev6 is all u need to make it work? or would i need a 7x reluctor wheel and the external crank?

(can u tell i dont know what these damn things do???...but thats ok..only 3 weeks into my AST course )

i'm setting up for a January/February swap so i'm just looking to start collecting parts. and i plan on keeping all u v6 cavy guys updated with my progress

note: new soup can and eibach pro kit...going on next week

The 3500 will have the 52x wheel. The trigger from 60degree would be used in the swap. Only in the case of an OBD-I setup, or some sort of standalone like the Megasquirt, for example. You could run the factory PCM that came with the 3500 as that is an option as well. That way the external trigger wont be necessary.

http://www.60degreev6.com/showthread.php?t=37995&highlight=3500+swap

There's for your 3500 swap. There's some info in there.

Nick Oliver wrote:yeah i would be all over that but i am finding it rather difficult to track down....

here ya go: 3500 Swap Questions Sticky

i appreciate it thanks...

No problem. Once you pick your direction and start, post some progress.

The 7x wheel on the crank pulley is used for ignition timing. You can go without the 52x wheel all together by converting to batch fire and ditching sequential injection with an OBD1 ECU.



Cardomain|Myspace

the question is...how does that affect overall performance?

M I N I O N - Sinbird wrote:The 7x wheel on the crank pulley is used for ignition timing. You can go without the 52x wheel all together by converting to batch fire and ditching sequential injection with an OBD1 ECU.

Yeah.... you can do that, but you still need to have a 7x wheel that the 3500 does not have. Thus the external crank trigger. The OBD-I ECU is not going to read a proper signal off of the 52x wheel.

Nick - running MPFI rather than SFI wont really give you a difference in performance. Once you push hard enough on an SFI engine (i think 3000rpm and up) it'll just be running the same as an MPFI setup would too. SFI will get you a little better throttle response on the low end. Best bet on this is to get an MPFI harness from an old 3.1 in a junk yard or maybe someone online is selling one as well. Thing you need to look out for is injectors. When you run an OBD-I ECU, and you try to run the new Multitec-2 injectors, the 2 dont disagree and it'll run not so well. You're gonna have to look and see if anyone has a good tuning file for that sort of application. Or, you'll have to do something like run the 3.1 injectors, which on the 3400 will hit 100% duty cycle before hitting redline, I'd imagine that on the 3500 you're gonna start looking at that at around 4000rpm or so. Personally I'd say that any electronics setup will be better than the OBD-I setup if you cannot find a tune specifically for the 3500. I'd be leaning more toward looking at a standalone unit here.

In my case I can run either batch fire (all 6 injectors at the same time) or bank fire (3 at a time) depending on what I select. I have mine set to bach fire. MPG is pretty good. I got over 22mpg on my last tank of gas, which involved a large ammount of time at WOT, including passes down the track. In normal driving like a regular person, I'd have probably been closer to the 30 mark. As for performance.... heh, lets just say that unless you set it up totally wrong and it's running really bad you're gonna feel more performance than the engine feels like with the car it came in. Dyno time is going to be where the overall performance is tweaked to the max.