Now the complaint is not from me. I bought this conversion in hopes of putting it on a while back. Due to needing the money I am selling everything I own which included the Rear Conversion. Well the person I sold it to isn't very happy and sent me this email:
I just got around to seeing the neon rears you sent me. I would like to know did you get those from Josh's gp? Reason I ask this is due to them not looking right. There are areas that are so fragile a finger nail could break them. Im not happy at all with the way they look and not at all what I expected. I have had numerous friends look at these and even state "I wouldnt put these on any car." Email me back concerning this. Thanks
Now because I never actually got around to installing them, i didn't look at them that closely so I'm not quite sure what he is in reference to. I don't remember anything that was so fragile a finger nail could crack it, but then again I wasn't looking for anything like that due to not installing them. I did email him back and I asked for pictures. I also told him to contact josh to see what his thoughts were, and to keep me informed. I'm just wondering though if anyone else has seen this, or had a problem? I'm just trying to help him resolve the problem. Thanks.
Ummm that guy doesnt know wtf he is talking about.. I have this rear conversion on my car and its from Josh and there are NO fragile parts in the kit.. Wtf, its all metal!!! The only thing I can think of is that the is talking about the dust shield that MIGHT be bent(and that is because the neons were on the ground when Josh picked up these kits from the yard)... Well if he had any idea on how to install the kit he would know that the dust shields are supposed to be cut before installing..
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Well its easy to jump to the conclusion that he doesn't know what he is talking about, but I'd rather not since I sold it to him, and if he is right, I would look like an *ss. I'm just seeing if I can get some kind of logical explanation of what exactly he is talking about. If it is for some reason the dust shield, then I'd be surprised that he didn't know that. Well hopefully it is something dumb and nothing else, because I would be pretty upset if I was him and it was something serious. Anybody else have a different idea, or had a problem similar to this? Thanks so far.
Hmm then I mustn't know what Jeffie and I saw than? You must know everything, right? Hell you must have ESP and could see how my setup looks... Till than dont say "That guy doesnt know wtf he's talking about"... Also you assume too much, metal can be fragile if its cut too thin, but hey you assumed I was talking about the dust shield, when I was really talking about the bracket itself. And if you havent realized it by now Im the guy who purchased this kit from him. But back on point these are the pics of the neon setup Me and Jeff finally got around to looking at it today.
In these pic you can see how the 4 holes are oblong....
This is another pic of the same bracket see the top area above the hole, see how much is removed...
This is the other bracket see how thin that one area is?(See its not a dust shield, its a bracket. Than again metal isnt fragile right?
See how in this pic the wide open hole is different than that of the third pic on top ? also see how thin that one area is....
Top view same bracket
Now does any of this look wrong to you, for me its looks a tad bit unsafe to put on a car. Seeing how this is going on my dd and all couldnt the bracket have a shatter effect when hard braking?. I was going to email Josh to see if it is supposed to look like this, but since its already on the org might as well post the pics on here.
Under Construction
Unfortunately, I didn't get too many pics of the bracket, but mine look similar (including the estimated thickness):
Given that you will have the clamping force of the hub bearing against the bracket, in my opinion, there should not be an issue.... I don't have that many miles on mine to be able to justify an actual answer, so I can't say either way.
Also, if I remember right, Josh did a force data analysis on the machining and it checked out ok.....
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, December 19, 2007 7:04 PM
Alright just making sure I was worried that the bracket would snap under force do to those things I showed in the pics.. Rather be safe than sorry you know
Under Construction
Found it in the sticky... page 11:
Quote:
There is a fortor of safety of 4.93 on the brackets I've machined. This isn't consistent but will be close. I bought a set of machined brackets a while back on ebay, when they arrived I was scraed so much I decided to machine my own brackets. I ran an FEA on there brackets and saw a fastor of safety of 1.75, which could easily be achievd by braking hard and hitting a pot-hole at the same time. **SNAP**
The webbing is plenty to hold up when its machined out properly.
Ill assume what I want to.. Just put the thing on the car and quit being a pansy about it
Obviously the kit has been safe for the guys who have been running this setup(including me)
So just put the kit on the car and take pictures for us
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD
AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Bah assumers
, I will take pics as soon as it goes on the car
....
I just wanted to make sure before I started the install, cause this car will most likely go to my lil bro soon with all the mods done so far... If anything were to happen to him cause of that I would go crazy, but from the sounds of it, it should be alright... Thanks
Under Construction
Hey guys, you wont have any problems with the bracket. If you imagine how the caliper applies the force to the bracket you will notice there is plenty of metal to handle the force. Its hard to describe but when the calipers apply force it will push up on the slides for the pads. All that needs to happen now is have enough strength to translate the force to the 4 holes surrounding the cut out for the hub. With all the force pushing up(when braking in a forward direction) will be translated through the top part of the bracket where the ebrake actuator is located and as you can easily notice doesn't have ANY significant machining done to it. Those places you mention that are "thin" have no significant/if any force being translated through it. I've done full 3D nodal analysis on these parts when I first started machining these parts due to this very same concern. With a maximum brake line pressure force of 1800psi applied to the caliper piston boils down to applying ~900lbs of force from the pads to the rotor, using a really high friction coeff. of 0.6(ie: EBC Green's) for high end pads leaves the pads applying ~400ft/lbs of torque to the brackets which would be centered about the center line of the hole bored out for the hub. Since the bolts are spaced out from the center this force is less. I dont have the numbers in front of me but I can get them if anybody is interested, I think I remember something like an effective 200ft/lbs of torque split over the 4 bolts around the hub. The FEA analysis showed a factory of safety of 2.0...meaning they should have a failure point when the pads apply a torque of 800ft/lbs about the center line which would require 3600psi of applied brake pressure.... You will split a brake line before you will snap those brackets. I tested a set of these brackets before to 550ft/lbs without any issues just to ease my mind of the analysis because I couldn't handle the idea of being responsible for somebody getting seriously hurt or die from them sporting my handywork.
Kardain wrote:Given that you will have the clamping force of the hub bearing against the bracket, in my opinion, there should not be an issue.... I don't have that many miles on mine to be able to justify an actual answer, so I can't say either way.
The clamping force of the hub adds no substantial integrity to these brackets.
As far as the quality of machining for the bracket I agree, those bolt holes dont look the best. I usually have a failure rate of 1 out of 10 machined brackets for reasons like overbore of the hub, improper placement of bolt holes(rare but happens), too much material removed to completely face-off the bracket(usually caused by old tooling or bad casting). It looks to me like that was a re-drill slightly moved to match the bolt pattern better of the hub. Although very rare with these, it wont cause any issues since I test every bracket I ship to 450 ft/lbs of applied torque. If you are iffy about anything just let me know and I will either buy it back or replace them for ya.
Ok... I retract my previous statement and substitute Josh's
Thanks for the info Josh... Ill keep these since their shouldnt be any problems with them
Under Construction
How would a fella go about finding a neon kit these days?
Aside from pulling them myself?
Well glad to hear the problem is resolved. Got to love cars, and the concerns, or actual problems they cause. Bubba, I hope they work great for you,
Ahhh... so this is why you were talking to me about them on AIM bubba...
Like i said before, i did a couple 80-45mph deceleration's at 5:30am when no one was on the highway and i was going to work to bed my pads and rotors and then for curiosity one 105-0mph just to see how they would hold up. ( yes i know the risks of my actions) The car stoped soo hard the ABS kicked on with me pushing quite firmly on the pedal but not slamming on it. I was quite impressed and feel they will be suitable for the strip. AutoX on the other hand, i'm not sure. Only issued i had/have it my brake line flaring skills and me painted my calipers and putting a crush washer on over paint.... that only causes leaks. Lol.....
I doubt you'll have any issues with the brackets breaking. The applied force is not perpindicular to the bearing surface, its parallel. I've autoxed, dragged, and road raced with mine, not one single issue, and I'm still running the washer spacers.
Not to question your intentions Josh, but why is there so much clearancing done for the bearing? Mine fit just fine with what looks like less material removed-
that looks normal to me too, i had to machine some meat out of mine too. I ride the hell out of them with no troubles at all.
I just edge them off....theres really no difference in how much is taken off.....I just face mice off aswell to get a nice and flat hub fit so it makes it look like theres been alot more was taken off....also, you have a picture of a neon setup and his is an intrepid so his ABS sensor hole is inverted to yours so when you take that material out there for the hub it leaves a gap in the material rather than your presence of material.
In case anybody id wondering why in the sticky I listed a factor of safety of 4.93 instead of the now 2.0 I just mentioned is because when I did the analysis I used the wrong material properties for the bracket. I used billet carbon steel instead of cast high carbon steel. I've never done the FEA analysis on the neon bracket, only the other mopar style ie: intrepid, new yorker, ect. but in physical testing there was no substantial strength differences between the two.
Yeah, I figured it was just the pictures that made it look different. I totally trust your engineering math, so again, anyone reading this- there should be no issues with strength in any of these brackets.
