I am looking to upgrade my 1992 Pontiac Sunbird engine by supercharging. I am not finding alot of info on this site. It has a stage 1 chip, K-N airfilter, ractive straight exhaust. Stock clutch, injectors etc etc.... I recently ran the quarter mile ( never raced before) at 15.92 first run and shaved about a tenth of a second for 4 more runs for the final run at 15.57 at 89mph. I do have video of first run lined up with a turbo Neon and almost won. I ran that run with the clutch slipping most of the way through 3rd gear. It was a brand new clutch and 5 runs, $600 down the drain. I forgot to mention that my car (Canadian) has 314 000 + km on it. I have also checked the top end and with the original 5 sp tranny ran it 133 mph or for you cdn 's 220kmh+. RPM range was at 5300 and still had a little left. I used my Police radar system to clock speed. It is fast and fairly quick and is worth (in my opinion) a rebuild and a supercharger. In addition to supercharger setup, a GOOD repeat Good clutch setup that will hold the new found power.

My 0-6 times are respectable but have seriuos clutch slipping problem. I took it out last night and used my accelerometer (which has my car info in memory) did 0-60 in 7.6 seconds with noticable clutch slippage in 2nd and 3rd.

I have replaced about every possible moving part in this car ($6000+ in 2 years) and is the perfect candidate for Racing 2006. I need more power and get it to hook up. I am will to spend the bucks as long as the HP gains are reasonable.

I do not know what hp gains I will get with what supercharger setup. I understand that I will require more than just a supercharger but want to understand more about it, labor involved and costs.

I also own a 1977 sunbird with a 355 v8 drag car that is pushing little over 400 hp. It is setup for drag though and I want a car to go AROUND the track. And I think my Sunbird is the one.

Again my car is basically stock except for chip (extra hp and eliminates speed governer) but has some impressive times considering age and high milege. It leaks a tiny bit of oil and has a slight miss (coil pack) right now but pulls great. I raced a new alero from a stop and stayed a half car in front of him till he let off at 100mph. i am not sure what they have under the hood but is newer than mine. If anybody needs any pictures of engine bay setup to help, i would be more than happy to send you one.

If anyone can help i would greatly appreciate it.

what you'll need or want.

Need to fix leaks/timing issues. afterall, if your pushing boost you can't have those problems with extra h/p.

3400 heads would be a good start. also a 3400 crank from a chevy venture. (its fordged)

fuel injectors/pump ect.

of course the boost aplication

you can find a turbo set up for it by going to the scrap yard and finding a 93-94 ( i think) gtp grand prix. there you'll be able to get the manifolds/heads/fuel/exhuast and turbo piping for a turbo set up.

this has been posted about 100Million times. do some research and you'll find what you need


...

I've got a blown 3400 in my 91 Z24.

Uses a Rotrex C30-94 blower. Produces about 12 psi @ 5700.

Dynoed 202 HP and 235 lb. of torque at the wheels with a lower boost setting (bigger pulley) and a slippy clutch.

Pulls very well.

Haven't ran the 1/4 yet, but I ran the 1/8 mile on the low boost setting and same slippy clutch and did a 8.9 @ 84.5

Now, it's quite a bit faster.


11.92 @ 122.69 MPH Rotrex Blower / Intercooled / Water-Meth / 100% Daily Driver / 381 WHP

as already stated, you'll definitely want to fix any leaks/bad coils/bad clutches before you get crazy on the boost.
that said, i only know of one blower setup made for a straight bolt-up to a 3.1, and that's a centrifugal kit sold by RSM racing. Been a while since I checked out their site, so I'm just assuming it's still available. I've never read or heard a thing about their 3.1 application, however. You might want to see what you can dig up on it, if anything.
What's your overall budget like just for your blower idea? You can certainly get a roots blower mated to a 3.1, though a good number of parts will need to be made or modified from stock to get that blower to match up nicely. Similarly sized GM engines have used M62 and M90 blowers for reference. There are online resources (and possibly places local to you) that can be good resources for getting a new or rebuilt blower.
Obviously there are other parts needed in the boost equation. Judging by your initial post, you're ahead of most folks just by knowing that. Get started with the planning stages, and check in here or on v6z24.com as questions come up.



Have you seen the turbo wagon?

14.069 @ 98.91mph
229.1hp & 261.7ft/lbs @ 6psi
no tuning time

ok first off as its been stated youll want to make it a hybrid check out domesticcrew.com
second i have a question, is their a reason your going with a SC over a turbo?
as for the clutch your gonna want to get a bully stage 3 clutch.
uh do you have a list of the parts youve changed so far? cause id hate to say it but you might want to do a major overhaul):
If your like me and want to keep your 3.1(ie not go hybrid, since your going circle track it might be a good idea to make this a high rpm power producer)
port and polish on the heads with a 3 angle valve job, get it shaved by 10thousandths
iron head gaskets
forged pistons(that will fit getting the engine bored[cleans up the cylinder walls])
forged rods
aftermarket cam that will produce power up to 8k(hell youll be at wot most of the time anyways atleast you could make full use of it, i wasnt planning on using this one though) with lifters[cant do hydraulic idont think theyll stand up to the power]
new(aftermarket) coilpack that will take advantage of a new set of aftermarket spark plug wires
im probably forgetting stuff for my long term plans but im not planning on turboing anytime soon so this was gonna be done over the next 4 years while im in college....

if anyone wants to add input feel free im feeling my way along and im still in the process of pulling my 3.1

information taken mostly from: v6z24.com and http://www.60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Pushrod&file=index&req=listarticles&secid=3

I wanted to go SC for the reliabilty and durability factor. Again, I am unsure of what setup makes econmical sense. I mean HP cost. I know it is not going to be cheap and I am willing to build up to my goal and hope I can produce 300 hp with this engine. By shaving 300+ lbs off the car should make it very competitive with the imports.

A list of things i have replaced OEM mind you but new.

Rack
Monroe Sensi Track Struts
rear shocks
Rear mounts
Strut Mounts
Ball joints
Hub assemblies x4
Brakes (complete rotors drums) x4
Front Flexlines
Rear wheel cylindersx2
Replaced Coil Packs x3 (was not a timing issue, just a bad coil)
Tires (cooper Cobras 15" 205 55 series x4
Catalytic converter
160 deg thermostat
All new rubber coolant hoses
Clutch (2 months ago)
Tie rod ends
CV Shafts x2
Control arm bushings
Tranny (5 sp Used low km's)
As mention before----

Stage 1 Chip
K&n Cold air intake /filter
Ractive straight freeflow Muffler

I am probably forgetting a few things but gives you and idea of what I have done.

If I do any kind of boosting, I will rebuild the engine. Again there is over 300000 km's on my engine but still flies. Regular oil changes, fuel services really helped me with the engine reliability issues with my car.


I am looking for an alternative to spending $10000 on my engine to get another 120hp which to me, does not make sense considering there is more to getting power to the ground than boosting an engine.

Give me an idea of what hp gains "statistically" of a SC/ Turbo charged 3.1 with necessary components to run will produce. I know there are all kinds of factors but if you had a budget of $2500, (just a number) could you get a SC or Turbo 3.1 setup and running strong for that amount? If not, what amount? It does not have to be new and I can get it rebuilt if it has to be. Just need to know what makes more economical sense. Thanks guys

like i said before, you can go to the junkyard and peice you together a turbo kit. and only spend less than a grand.

Turbo=More power, more tunablity (but more harmful on motor, and have to tune just right)

S/C= Reliable... Little more expensive at times, but will last and do less harm to your motor.

i'd do a turbo v6. Figure with about 5psi you'll be in the 200's with the right work. Turn that wastegate up to open up at say 10psi, you should be nearing the 300HP mark with the right motor buildings. Now turning it up to 10psi on a v6, and it not being set up for a turbo, kiss your motor good bye!

fordged is good, boreing/balanceing/blueprinting/porting even better.

in this case, Stock = destruction!


...

uhhhhh i dont see how a turbo can be any more harmful than a super charger.... with the supercharger your losing power(well it takes HP to spin that SC) whereas the turbo runs on the exhaust gasses....
for 2500 you can get a turbocharged 3.1 wont give you max horsepower but it will do for you....
500 for a rebuild kit(with forged pistons and rods) 1500 for a turbo kit you put together yourself and another 500 for a port and polish job....
though those prices are a little off, your looking at about 3200$ unless you get lucky and find stuff while your searshing around(im guessing a set of 3400 heads with a full port and polish 3angle valve job etc) will be about 800$ then everything else to finish your hybrid should be another 200 or so and if you assemble your own rebuild kit its probably gonna run you about 800(just for the block not including the price of boring)

in the end id probably look to spending 5000$ and that will put you running at probably around 350-400 hp possibly higher... if you really build that bottom end up you can push that boost for crazy high numbers but your looking at spending good money and of course theirs always the chance of throwing a rod or something like that

wicked

a few more tidbits for you, here, as far as pricing goes.
decent forged pistons alone will typically run you $400-$500us. rods are often in that same range, though they can be had for less if you hunt.
a stock rebuild kit for a pontiac tgp ('89-'90, vin V) will run you about $350us, and will include most of the good stuff you'll need for a fairly nice yet mild turbo build, should that option be of interest to you. the stock style pistons, which are hypereutectic (spelling?) should be good for regular boost of 10-11psi. they're also considerably less pricey than forged. stock style rods are pretty stout as well. let's not even talk about a crankshaft, as the stock one will handle 400hp and the same if not more torque without issue. a mild turbo build like mine can net you mid- to high-200whp range with good tuning and proper components at 10-12psi.
i think i've got $3500 or so in my driveline (never added up the receipts), not including tranny and clutch. if you have connections like friends, relatives or whatever, who can help with or do a lot of the work, this will help TONS in the cost department. make friends with vendors on this site and others. buy rebuilt instead of new...
i don't recall if it's been asked or not, but what's your budget like for this project? how long are you willing to take for your build?
it's good to see you have a lot of the general maintenance issues in hand!
oh, if you plan to stick with the stock computer, find a friend or a local company that can burn new chips for you as needed. tuning, as already mentioned, is a huge key to keeping the beast alive and on the road! if you don't have this resource, you might as well budget for a new computer (from $cheap DIY on up to $2k and more), as well as for dyno time to tune everything properly.
there's just so much that goes into this kind of project, it's really tough to cover all of the angles while just typing away. some things you'll simply come upon as you build (high flow oil & water pumps, tricks to create better fluid flow, etc.).




Have you seen the turbo wagon?

14.069 @ 98.91mph
229.1hp & 261.7ft/lbs @ 6psi
no tuning time

couple comments in regard to that last poster:
the stock cam may be rated for up to 400 hp but with an aftermarket cam you can get more lift and the valves will stay open longer

i didnt think of it before but you can also take a look into getting one of the engine rebuild kits for the 3.1 from JBP they state its good for 20 lbs of boost

or you could always call up drop 7k and pick up a wild forged 3400 drop it in turbo it and be running hmmm guessing it could handle 18-25lbs fairly easily, down the track

wicked

I appreciate the help guys and it seems the turbo set up is the more economical way to go.

As for budgets, around $3500 to start. I have another 1977 sunbird I race with a 355 V8 and hauls. 0-60 with 13" tires @ 5.0 sec and quarter @ over 100mph with a 3 sp B@M slap shifter. It costs me alot already to race on that car so I have to be cautious with my other sunbird.

I cannot do alot of the work myself unfortunately because no one has ever showed me how and I do not usually take on tasks that I know nothing about. So if anybody wants to do some work this Fall/ winter let me know! HAHA. I am serious...

I own and electronic liquidation company and come across some interesting things in my business and would be more than happy to trade electronics.(TV's/Camcorders/Computer etc..)


I guess I have to do some pricing now. I will get back to you after I do some pricing.


If anybody has parts that I need and willing to trade for Electronic goodies, let me know.

wicked dudeman-

Quote:

couple comments in regard to that last poster:
the stock cam may be rated for up to 400 hp but with an aftermarket cam you can get more lift and the valves will stay open longer

I think your confusing the camshaft with the crankshaft

I believe jux was refuring to the 400hp limit on the crank not the cam, I don't see how there would ever be a hp limit on a cam :/

The 3400/3rd gen 660 does have a roller cam I believe which would be better than the flat-tapet on the 3.1/2nd gen 660 engines

yea thanks i didnt catch that and wasnt really thinking too much about it(i never do lol)

I know where you can get a 2.8 supercharged motor for 750.00 plus shipping

3.8 supercharged SORRY

you can find similar or the same items that jbp sells for far less elsewhere, just for reference.
20psi would be fun, though!

mark, which option is more economical all depends on how things are put together. i'm quite sure you could piece together a turbo or blower setup and come out at the same price range if you work it right.
drive some car that has one , then the same type of car with the other option. both systems are available for many cars, like civics (of course), mustangs, miatas and who knows how many others. the only trick is to finding comparable rides when test driving or riding.




Have you seen the turbo wagon?

14.069 @ 98.91mph
229.1hp & 261.7ft/lbs @ 6psi
no tuning time

The 3.8L supercharged engine would be nice but don't I have to install new mounts and my 5 sp tranny I believe does not work on a 3.8 S/C engine does it? How many km on Aaron it and what condition and also, most important, where is it?

Does anybody have any times for a S/C 3.8L sunbird in action. I know there is about 240hp which in my car would be about a 35+% increase. I think I am around 165-170hp to the flywheel with the chip, exhaust and air intake.

My big question is the difficulty in installing the 3.8L. There is enough clearence from top to bottom? Do I have to cut things up?

can this block be bored .060 over? if so it would gain you 7 cu in making it a 198 cu in and a 3.24L which im sure would be a decent gain itself.


The one, the only, ME.

sorry forgot to add to if it is possible to incorporate a 4.3L crank with that .060 over bore. cause you would get 208 cu in and a 3.41L


The one, the only, ME.

4.3 crank can not be used thats a different engine.

I have really no idea what 04eco is really saying and I am trying to make my HP gains some what simpler than that. Again I do not have much knowledge about adding upgrades and boring etc... I am learning though. I am considering a 3.8 S/C engine but need to know what it consists on installing it. Thanks

ok the 3.8 SC motor has only 80,000 miles on it and its located in North Carolina

i was just putting out ideas on how to make some power i wasnt to sure on the 4.3 crank either but hey i tried haha


The one, the only, ME.

yeah. the 4.3 crank is a Vortech motor...


...

The 3.8L engine (been researching) is a pretty good engine. Basically add-ons for the S/C version is the best route for getting to the 300hp mark that I am looking for. Upgrading ignition, high flow water pump etc... will put me at my mark. MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS TRANSMISSION! Will my 5 sp bolt up? If not do I need to switch to an automatic tranny?

Also what does it really consist of installing a 3.8 S/C engine in my Sunbird? I need a little help here if you can.