Confession preface: I dont actually own a J-body. I actually have a Fiero that needs an engine transplant in the future and the tubo Jbody engines look like fun stuff.
I am deciding between the 1.8/2.0t or the 3800. On thing that really stands out about these engines is that they have a reputation to eat head gaskets. Thats not extremely bad for me since I do know my way around the stock engine, but it will no doubt be a pain in the buttox. I see a few very powerful 2.0t's around these boards, so how do you actually get around the head gasket problem? Is the problem mainly for the 2.0 or is it just as bad with the 1.8?
What are the straight hp ratings for the 1.8t and 2.0t respectively? What about bore and stroke?
For you guys with the manual trannys, what milage do you get?
How long do these engines last? I know the 3800's last well into 200k miles.
What about weight? How heavy are these engines?
Thanks for your time, guys.
I dont see anywhere to edit my post and I have a question I forgot about. Are there any performance camshafts made?
the 2.0l is sort of a forgotten motor in north america. over here, there are almost no performance parts. however, almost none doesnt mean none at all, and in reality, there is lots you can do with this motor.
i would recomend the 2.0l turbo over the 1.8l. the 2.0l is much more refined. the 1.8l was 150hp the 2.0l t was 165hp. im not sure of the 1.8l, but the 2.0l is a square motor, 84mm bore and stroke. the headgasket is an issue, however replacing it with an isuzu 2.2l gasket seems to work, or better yet, cometic makes a mls (multi layer steel) gasket that works quite well. these motors can make upwards of 350hp if built right. one site ive found is
http://www.importperformanceparts.net/ for performance parts, under the opel stuff.
what about the opel??? well, this motor is gm's first global engine. it was built in brazil and used all over the world. versions have been used in opel, dawoo, pontiac (sunbird and grand am) isuzu and vauxhaul. in europe they are very poular. there are many different versions, all based on the same block. they range from 1.6l to 2.2l, 8 valve sohc, 16 valve sohc and 16 valve dohc, and yes, any top end will bolt onto any block. versions of these motors are still being used today, including the chevy optra and avao. at one point in europe they had the c20let (2.0l dohc turbo) that made 205hp.
Do it the smart/easy way. Built yourself a killer V-6 or a 4 cyl Iron Duke engine. You didn't say what's in the car now.
Tons of parts, cheap, can use some hi-po s/block Chevy stuff in them.
Iron Duke will outpower the 2.0 turbo in n/a form, hook a turbo to it & screw your eyeballs to the back of your head :>
personaly i would build the biggest motor i could stuff in the thing for a reasonable cost. 2 that come to mind are the 3800 or 3.4l DOHC. im not realy a 3800 fan, however there is a large aftermarket for them. i would rather go for the high reving 3.4l dohc and turbo it. those motors have a lot of potential.
I believe JB was looking for something that doesn't require a large amount of fabrication. Kinda like the best bang for your buck, with a relatively easy bolt-in swap.
My choices were what basically were offered in the Fiero from the factory. Plug & play wiring, to a point... factory mounts, linkage, etc. Easy HP to be made.
For those of you who subscribe to the bigger is better theory, and don't care about a vehicle with so much weight in it's rear.... pendulum effect :>( what the heck, go to the wreckers & get a 500 inch Eldorado FWD setup, stuff the 512 crank into it, bore it out to 529 inches :>
turn it around backwards & stuff it in.
And before anyone says that a s/b Chevy is lots lighter... take a hard look at the weights first........................ then again there's the Northstar.
in a fiero, if your going in a straight line, nothing beats a big ol v8. can you argue with pulling the front end up when launching???
i beleive a 4 cyl doesnt make enough torque for a fiero, as being a miod engine platform you can easily make use of a fair bit, thats why i like the v6. it has the torque and is light enough.
^^^^my dream car right there^^^^
The NHRA class winner is a Fiero with an Iron duke 151, hilborn mechanical injection, and no blue bottle. Yanks the wheels coming outa the hole, runs in the mid 9's all day long.
3.4 liter Z34's are getting to be rather scarce & expensive to buy. Only parts they have in common with other 60 degree engines are the rods & crankshaft. Take those tall heads on a 60 degree block and you have one wide/high engine to try & shoehorn into car, not to mention all that electrical/mechanical work.
3.8 60-degree engines are good, but if you're gonna use a 3.8 or better, go with the 90-degree engines. It's a 350 Chevy, minus 2 holes...TONS of speed stuff.. and the newer GM performance blocks...steel & aluminum versions are now evenfire like the 60's. Brodix has canted valve heads for them, plus others, hilborn has injectors that can be converted to EFI with a MoTeC box or so can Kinser.
Man still hasn't replied as to what he has in mind, so maybe he's just winding us up :>
there is no3.8l 60 degree v6. the 60 degree motors are 2.8/3.1/3.4/3.4dohc/3500 and 3900. the new 3900 is a prime canidate for swapping to a fiero. 240hp n/a, the heavy 3800 isnt near than except with the cupercharger. and the 3800 is not a small block chevy missing 2 holes, it was derived from the buick 3.8l in the grand nationals. a 4.3l v6 is a 305 missing 2 holes. and the 60 degree motors have a gm aluminum block aswell, and there is just as much speed stuff for them, and they are a lighter motor.
and yes an iron duke can be built up to insane power levels, but we are talking about street cars here. best bang for the buck is a v6 in a fiero.
i dont know much about a fiero or nuthin but in response to the iron duke idea id say GIT ER DONE. i had one in a 1990 Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais and man ill tell ya what that was a runnin bastard. even after my cousin warped the head it would still pull over 100 w three head gasket and an ass load of silicone sealin it off , that thing was industructable!!!!!!
HORN BROKEN.....WATCH FOR FINGER!!!
A 4.3L V6 is definitely a 350 minus 2 holes. 4" bore, 3.48" stroke. 'Cept that the crank pin has offset rod journals to make it even fire.
-->Slow
Slowolej and Bradley...thanks :>
Sharkey gets +2.5 points for my typo stating "3.8 is a 60 degree", when it should have read 2.8- 60 degree engines are good.
3800 is a redesign of the 3.8 block, and to be honest, I can't find anywhere in my post that I even mentioned a 3800, let alone saying it's a 6 hole s/b Chevy. :>O !
Buick V6's and s/b Chevy V6/V8 engines are 90-degree engines, and share many common parts. I "used" 350 as an example, one that I thought everyone could relate to........ rather than a 265-267-283-302-305-307-327-350-400.
I "suggest" you check the speed merchants for available parts for both engines. I'm quite sure you'll find the 90-degree engines have "much" more to offer, and at quite a savings in $$$$$.
So if you save money building a 90-degree V6 instead of a 60-degree one.... and it makes more power, I would have to say "again" that the 90 gives more bang for your buck in a Fiero.
3.8 or better, go with the 90-degree engines. It's a 350 Chevy, minus 2 holes...TONS of speed stuff
the 3.8l and 3800 fwd motors are the exact same motor, just a different name. yes there are series 1 2 and 3, and yes they have been redesigned over the years, but they all go back to the roots of the old 3.8l buick motor. in fact, the 3.8/3800 still is considered a buick design motor. it does not share parts with the sbc.
Quote:
but they all go back to the roots of the old 3.8l buick motor
Actually, they all go back to the odd fire 196 cuber V6 from about 62. Then Buick sold the engine to Jeep, who installed it in the CJ's in the mid '60s. By then it was a 225 V6. GM bought it back in the mid '70s and "bumped" it again, to the 231 / 3.8L engine. It was still an odd fire engine at that time. It didn't get switched to even fire until the late '70s or mid '80s.
And if you really want to talk about the 60 degree V6, you need to dig into the archives of GMC's division to find displacements of 305, 351, 379, 401, 432, and 478 cubes. There's even a "twin" 60 deg V6 (4 heads, 2 intakes, 2 distributors, common crank and block) displacing 700 cubes.
http://www.6066gmcguy.org/TwinSix.htm
I'd bet that "Motorman377" is an indication of someone who knows a bit about engine families and parts swapping.
-->Slow
the currect 60 degree v6 doesnt have any roots with that engine. the only common thing is that its a 60 degree engine. gm built some 60 degree motors back in the 60s, then stopped. the 60 degree motor as we know it (started production in 1980) was its own clean sheet op paper.
Quote:
the 60 degree motor as we know it
lol.
I grew up around trucks and spent years working in farm country. Those big, old engines are real dependable workhorses, although they use as much fuel as a diesel locomotive crossing the Sierras. I've always wanted on of the larger displacement versions to play with in a 67-72 4wd pickup. I think it would be interesting to apply modern design concepts to the heads and pistons and to replace the tiny carb and points dizzy with a modern efi system to see if the engine could be made more efficient.
Is that chopped blue Fiero one of V8 Archie's creations? He's got the smallblock Chevy thing down to a science.
-->Slow
slowolej wrote:Quote:
the 60 degree motor as we know it
lol.
I grew up around trucks and spent years working in farm country. Those big, old engines are real dependable workhorses, although they use as much fuel as a diesel locomotive crossing the Sierras. I've always wanted on of the larger displacement versions to play with in a 67-72 4wd pickup. I think it would be interesting to apply modern design concepts to the heads and pistons and to replace the tiny carb and points dizzy with a modern efi system to see if the engine could be made more efficient.
Is that chopped blue Fiero one of V8 Archie's creations? He's got the smallblock Chevy thing down to a science.
-->Slow
yup. i want to have that soo bad and hes a genious. hes built some really sick fieros
Slow.... gotta admit, the man just won't quit
OK sharkey, try this on for size, if you won't believe anyone else....
google- 3.8l Buick V6...... second item; Buick V6 engine-wikipedia .... ok so far???
now be very careful here. scroll on down to 3.8l and then the 3800's.
GEE IT"S GOOD TO BE BACK HOME AGAIN !
Sorry
couldn't resist... well I tried a little to resist, but lost.
Slow, you bring tears to my old eyes. Talk about ground thumping, earth shaking....pull the @!#$ outa a mountain engines, yesss 60 degree monsters!!
Engine families, parts swapping? Well they all do run on gasoline-fuel, I think?
whassup....ok for the noob do you have a 2.8 or the iron duke cause if you have the 2.8v6 i can help you with this i have a freind that has a 86 gt feiro that he swapped a 3.4L in to out of a 1993 camaro and then he is also obsessed with boost so he got to doing some research and the 1990-1993 pontiac grand prix's have a special package they called the meclarin awd anyways they came stock with a t4/t3 turbo so what my freind did is he located one and took the y-pipe and @!#$ and converted it to the 3.4L well it was pretty much a bolt on but any ways its not intercooled and he has the water injection and he was able to pull 300hp to the crank and 240 at the wheels well any ways i am gunna cut to the chase there are 2 sites that i can giv you to set you in the right way one is the feirostore.com then the other is westcoastfeiros.com the west coast feiros will build you a turbo kit for i think its was 1200$$ and i mean that is a grip of cash but it is calibrated for your set up i hope you have great luck with the feiro they are fun cars but i am j-body man and allways will be....well the turbo firenza died i wrecked it like at the begining of last year .....rip firenza
good luck and god bless
t3/t4, nope ^ t25 maybe and that will BARELY get to the 280 crank HP mark... 3400 or not.... they loose efiency around the 12 psi mark nonetheless. and are barely large enough for the stock 3.1 let alone any upgrades/
1st 1st gen on air.....
the car you are thinking of is an 89-90 TGP (turbo grand prix). it was modified by mclearen. they were 205hp. they came with a t25 turbo and was actualy undersized for the motor, but this allowed quick spool up, but they wouldnt make power passed 5500rpm. the t25 is only good for around 275hp and its very innefficient when trying to make that kind of power.
what i could see going is using a the exaust crossover from the tgp and bolting on something like a gt28rs, that would give you 300hp.
I havent forgotten about you guys. Ive just been really busy lately with school and painting my car.
The reason I picked the 204t is that it gets almost as good gas milage as the stock 2.5 with nearly twice the power. Its got almost as much power as a Quad4 HO and more torque. One major factor in my decision was weight and size. I have an 84, and the 84s have low decklids. There isnt enough room to stick anything bigger than a 4-banger under it, and it just got painted Lotus OEM Krypton Green, so you better believe I wont be doing more prep work.
Another thing is that the engine/tranny combo is a drop-in as long as I can get mounts. I'll be solid mounting, so that is trivial.
One thing I like about the engine is that since we dont have power steering and the MR layout, I can get some nice power by not having a PS pump and a short, fat exhaust south of the turbo (yes, I read the articles
). Factor in a port job. Would 200 hp be about right?
I just got hooked on metal casting and that SOHC head is just aching to be replaced with a more up to date DOHC design.... *wink wink*
The Northstar is the end-game engine for a Fiero I own, but not with the coupe. Too dangerous since its not as aerodynamic as the fastbacks. I'm sure anyone will appreciate a Northstar screaming down a track at 10kRPM with VVT.
Once I get the engine in and wrking, I'll likely be concentrating on designing the head. I'll be asking for a cracked/warped head for research, so save a head if you crack one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Family_II_engine
Are the first two entries the EuroGM engines with the 16 valve heads I need to look for? It does say its for a 86mm bore and stroke engine, but doesnt mention turbocharged applications until the Ectotec. Id like to get a search narrowed down so I can scope out some prices.
