Alright I'm stumped. Any ideas? - Performance Forum
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I recently got a racecar off my buddy who had tried to "build" a motor, but never could get it to run. Its a 2.2 with the 3 speed auto. I had an auto car last year that i had messed with and surprisingly got it to run right with the 5 speed cars. I'm running dirt circle track, by the way. So i traded on it thinking i may be able to get it right. He has a 99 2200 bottom end with a 96 2.2 head, and i believe 96 wiring harness.
I got it to the house and pulled the valve cover off, and there was a washer between one of the nuts and a rocker arm. Checked them all, not sure why that was there, maybe put there on accident, but anywho its not there. Re torqued all the rockers, and put it back together, finally idled smooth. Thought I had got it. Negative.
Missed bad once i got to the track and it got warm. Back to scratch. Found, what i thought, was a bad injector. Changed it, still nothing. Had been thinking it the whole time, researched for a while on here one day, and confirmed my suspicion about the timing notches on the cranks. Changed the 98 crank for a 96 crank, new main and rod bearings. Put it all back together, and thought for sure it was going to be right.
Once again, close but no cigar. My trouble now:
Idles smooth, good throttle response (for a 2.2) and sounded right. Fired right away after rebuild, no hesitation. Took it to the track and for the first lap, its fast. But after that, i slowly fall back. It doesn't loose power, just will never run up into the higher half of the rpm's. I am running 13" tires, but even in first gear it seemed like it didnt want to run up, and wouldn't get to the rev limiter. The rev limiter is still there when its in park, but it may be out of it in gear, but still doesnt have the power. just feels flat.
I have pulled the valve cover off again and turned the engine over, and everything looks to be operating correctly. all rocker arms are cycling, and all seem to be coming to the same height.
My question is this, could octane cause this problem? will it make it "flat" on the top end? It had 87 octane fuel in it when i got it (i dont know how much, couple gallons max) and i added about a 50/50 mix of 110 and 93 octane to it. I should have gotten a plug reading, but didnt think about it at the time. was more frustrated than anything.
I also noticed some residual oil in the throttle body, so i have the intake off right now cleaning everything up, doing a little polishing on the intake runners, and replaced the PCV valve. I also removed the EGR since the last time i ran it. just made a black of plate and got rid of it. Haven't ran it like this, but I read that it wasn't needed. Guess we'll find out.
Any knowledge or experience y'all have with this, please throw your two sense in here. I have researched and researched, but haven't ran across anything with this symptoms, just trying to get an idea by saturday.
I will admit I don't know much about the 2.2... there are QUITE a few OHV experts here.
I do know that mixing the newer top/bottom end with the older results in a dramatic change in compression ratio. I'm not sure what combination results in what but the one thing that caught my eye is that you are using the newer 2.2 bottom end with an older 2.2 head. As much as they are the same engine they are actually different... I'll let somebody else chime in with some accurate wisdom though but maybe in the meantime It'll give you something to look around at while you wait for some help.
Good luck!
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Can you post a video of what the car does at all?
98+ bottom and 97- head calls for high compression for sure, so high octane is a must on that one.
Are all the other sensors on the car working properly? (only asking "because race car", they might not be by design).
Do you have a wideband on the car? Have you tried a compression test?
A 96 harness is not able to be tuned I dont think, I would consider moving to 97 or newer and getting it tuned with HPT. With that dramatic of a change a tune should get you a lot more out of it (not to mention making it safer to run).
If you have gone this far with it, I would port the head too (the ports being tiny are cause for a "flat" top end on this motor in stock form lol).
Are you saying it will rev to the limiter in park/neutral and it wont when your driving it?
I would bet that its knocking and pulling out timing, but its hard to say without much more detail. I know on my setup I could feel it knock when we were tuning it and it was a LOT slower with the lower timing when it pulled.
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
I don't think its that the rev limiter doesnt work, I have no reason to suspect its not "working" or "there" the motor just wont pull up high enough to reach it, at least thats how it seems. To my knowledge there has been nothing done as far as tuning is concerned. I know the combination of the two results in high compression, thats why it was done. I would like to avoid tuning for right now, even though i know it will produce more power, just to finish out this year I just want it to run. I will look into tuning for next year.
It will be hard to get a video of what the car does, because the only time i feel an issue is on the track while I'm racing. It just feels sluggish on the top end, and I'm running such a small tire that it shouldn't be that way.
With the increase in compression, even with the automatic transmission, it should be able to at least keep up with the other cavaliers, seeing that the class is all cavaliers except for 1 or 2 cars. At cold idle it is fine, smooth as can be, no issues. once I get on the track, run it, and bring it to the pits after its good and warm, there is a slightly rough idle. I can get a video of this on saturday if octane doesn't fix it.
Could it be an issue with fuel delivery? Not enough fuel pressure, need larger injectors? Or purely octane and a clean intake?
I was told the head was ported and polished, but have not had it off to see. I know the intake side of the head looks like it has. it was gasket matched and seemed smooth compared to my other head. Intake is being cleaned and polished right now.
Sounds like you have what should be a pretty potent motor.
It could be leaning out too much and knocking and pulling timing. You could try an aftermarket AFPR and adjust the fuel pressure up a bit. Colder plugs would also be something to look at and see if it helps.
though without some kind of eyes on what its doing its hard to say. Wideband is expensive, but worth it long term. I would look into a scan gauge that can see KR and other things. IF those are compatible with 96, I dont recell though.
I dont believe that you can upgrade the 97 and older injectors. I actually dont know if there is a bolt on AFPR solution like there is with the newer style fuel rail but that wouldnt stop me if I was that far in already lol.
It sounds to me like a mixture of timing and AFR adjustments would get you where you need to be.
Can you hear any pinging?
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
I don't hear any now that I have changed the crank. Before, when it had the 99 crank in it I did. At first I thought it was piston slap, but then read about the timing thing so figured it was just knocking. I have 1 stage colder plugs in it already. Forgot to put that in the original post. I'm going to put everything back together saturday morning when my intake gets back, drain all the fuel out, and put straight 110 octane in and see what it does. I'll try to take some videos if it doesn't run right.
Ill check into the adjustable fuel pressure regulator, that was one suspicion i had, just had also read that from the factory these are good setups unless you're doing a major build. Maybe what I have is just a little more than it can handle? I don't know. I'm going to get a plug reading saturday, that should tell me if its running too lean. Hoping the fuel and cleaned intake along with fixing the pcv should make a difference. Just hunting for other ideas. Thanks for the help.
I think youre on track. Your biggest obstacle will be pulling timing i think. The injectors should be satisfactory for a stock cam with your setup I would imagine, since you're gonna run 110 octane.
These motors are pretty simplistic. There isnt much more than what you have already looked at as far as what would cause the issues you're seeing.
Lets see what the next trip out does. I always wanted to build a solid ohv n/a motor, but went with boost instead. Im intrigued!
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Without tuning it for the much much higher compression all you can do is band-aid the situation with 110 octane fuel as you plan to do. 
Hey so long as you can afford to throw 110 octane in it, leave it JUST the way it is. It's going to run very strong so long as you can keep knock at bay.
I think the only reason you are feeling it lose power in the mid-range is because it's knocking too badly and the engine is pulling timing to keep it from grenading. If you can get that under control I'm pretty sure it'll run just fine.
The 1 step colder plugs help quite a bit, too.
Lastly, if you haven't checked the fuel filter I'd give that a look-see too... just to ensure you're getting as much fuel to the injectors as possible.
Sounds like it'll be a fun car!
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Good deal. Thanks for the help y'all. I hadn't thought about it actually pulling timing once it detected the knock. Seems like that may be a culprit. I'll check out the fuel filter, matter of fact going to just change it anyways, can't hurt right? I sure do hope the 110 helps out. In other words it won't knock nearly as bad, so the computer won't pull timing? Or am i way far off base? I don't know much about the computers as far as tuning is concerned. Most of what I know has been building small block chevy v8's for dirt cars. No computers there, lol.
Ill keep y'all posted as to how it goes after saturday. Look for a post monday morning/afternoon time.
Thanks again for the info!
110 octane should take care of any pre-ignition you are experiencing from the bump in compression... meaning no knock... meaning the car should run full power to redline with no timing pulled.
It should feel like a completely different car.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
The idea that it's only doing that when it's hot points me to either the O2 sensor, or to the ignition coils and ICM. Beings that you're probably spending a good amount of time at WOT, I would lean more toward it being ignition than the O2 sensor.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
Alright, I told y'all i'd let ya know how it went, and well, it wasn't exactly as planned.
In practice the car seemed to run alright, as compared to before, I ran first gear out before I shifted it, and unlike before it would actually run to the rev limiter, so that was one problem knocked off the list. The track was still real wet so it was just spinning most of the way down the stretch, couldn't really get a feel of how it would be as compared to the competition, but the motor seemed to pull alright. Had a rough idle, almost like a miss but cleared up as I accelerated. I'm guessing that's just the way this motor is going to idle because of the compression/work thats been done to it? I'm not sure.
When i went out for the heat race, the rough idle got worse. Hoping it would clear up, I hit the track anyways just to see what it did.This time, it was a dead miss on cylinder #3. Had fire at the plug, and listened to the injector with a stethoscope and heard it working, so I was stumped. I let it sit until time for the feature, and realized my help had left the fuel pump running. The engine wouldnt turn over at all, like it was locked up. So we pushed the car on the trailer and took it home, and I let it sit and think about what it had done to me until last night. lol
Took the plugs out and found #3 was full of fuel. Spun the fuel out of it and it turned over just fine. didnt fire it yet, but at least its not locked up. Going to change the injector tonight with a spare I have at the shop and see what it does. Also wanted to change the oil before I fire it up.
It shouldnt idle rough really. It should still be smooth, because the cam profile isnt changed. I bet it clears up with a working injector. I would look at the coilpacks too if they are high mileage; I replaced a set of worn out MSD packs with low mile stockers as a test and they cleaned my idle up tremendously.
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Alright. There's no tellin how old they are, they came on the car when i got it, and it was a racecar before then. I was under the impression they either worked or they didn't. Always kept up on the plug wires, but never the coils themselves. Something I may change around for this weekend.
Well saturday morning I bit the bullet, changed plugs, wires, and both coils, fixed a leaking injector, changed the oil, the works. Fired the car up to load it on the trailer and it sounded great. Idled smooth, sounded like it would be a good night. Ended up being rained out, but the track decided to race on sunday afternoon, so to the track I went.
Fired the car to unload it, still sounded fine. Alot better than it had in the past. Took it out to practice, came in to the pits, and there it went, right down the drain. Back to idling rough, wouldn't pull down the stretch, just felt like junk.
Whats left? Sensors on the intake? (throttle position, MAP, ?) Computer?
Anybody want to buy it? lol
is it throwing a code at all?
It sounds like once it starts listening to the PCM it gets upset and idles rough. MAP controls timing I think, that might be a place to start. Having different compression might do something to the vac at idle. do you have a vacuum gauge?
I could be wrong, its been a while since we adjusted timing on my motor so I havent looked at the tables.
how is it off idle and in PE? (PE = Power enrichment, does it run decent when you nail it after it warms up)
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
I don't have a vacuum gauge. I do know that there are 3? vacuum lines, at least thats what i assume them to be, coming off the top of the throttle body. None of these are hooked to anything. Our other cavalier that we have been running all year has none of them connected either and it runs just fine. I actually went to the house and got it last night when mine didn't run good in practice. I didn't really get a chance to mess with it on the track, turned 2 laps or so and someone had rolled their car over so i cut mine off of the front stretch and jumped out to help him. I have changed the MAP sensor because i broke the one that was on it when i got it. Granted i put a used one on it, but nothing has changed since then.
And about the code, I have absolutely no idea. I've never even looked to see if it still has the OBD port to even check, its a racecar lol
I will look this evening when i get off work though.
Is there a way to easily identify which year wiring harness/computer I have? I caught wind that the people that actually put the car together originially weren't too mechanically inclined, so I have doubts that the right wiring harness would have been used. I have a couple laying around the house, not 100% sure on the years though. I know they are all from 2.2 cavaliers though.
Is there a certain year I need to use, and how do I identify each year, if possible? Or do y'all think this wouldn't be the issue?
Well, after fighting and fighting, I decided to bite the bullet last night and just pull the head off to find out what's really going on. I didnt really want to, but I was running out of options. I wish i would have just pulled it off to begin with, which is what I should have done all along when I first got it. But, oh well. It all makes sense now! Here's what I found.
- Attachments
- piston2.JPG (88k)
Well that 'splains that!
I have a set of stock 2200 pistons and rods in the garage if you need. They have like 120k on them, but I wouldnt hesitate to use 'em on a motor under 200hp.
Get it back together, you should be running strong with a new piston in there. Im excited to see the results because Im considering this head swap too!
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
I appreciate it. I already have brand new pistons for the 2200, because at the beginning of the year I had planned to just do the piston swap in the 97 car, but never got around to it. Had EVERYTHING there to do it, but just never did it. So I have everything there already, might as well swap the piston out, re ring the other 3, and put her back together. Probably going to just drop the oil pan and do it in the car.
Matt, you may have some experience in this. I have replaced bearings, cranks, etc., but never rings, and I have read some controversial theories on "breaking in" the rings. How have you done it in the past? Is there a proven "right" or "wrong" way to do these cars? i can't exactly hop in it and take it up the road.
*UPDATE*
Got all pistons out, changing the bad piston, honing the cylinder walls, getting it ready to put back together.
Took the head to the machine shop, exhaust valves were leaking on 2 of the cylinders, having a valve job done as we speak, should have it back Wednesday evening, then put it together for saturday. Sure hope it runs this time!
As far as breaking it back in? I cleaned up the cyl walls, the pistons already had rings in them when I bought them, but I would have gone with the stock ring gap.
All I did was for about 500 miles i would drive it nicely, and do some high vacuum high load pulls. Eventually it stopped consuming oil and was good to go as far as I know.
Doing it without driving it, i think you can run it at a constant RPM for a period of time but I never tried it. I imagine it would be the same process as with an SBC motor, the architecture is almost the same anyway.
Honeslty its probably going to be very hard to have issues with that IMO. Its a stout motor.
I just got mine hopping along on 23psi. Holy @!#$! lol.
"A car just isn't a car without a little blood, sweat, and beers." -- Shadowfire
Well, the motor seems to have ran fine! Until it got hot, that is. Was a competitive top 5 car all night, but i think the fan quit working about half way through, and when we had to stop for a red flag, I had to come in to the pits and get that thing cooled down. Lost the race, but didn't lose a motor at least.
Anyways, it's just not what I expected. And it may be me, but I want more. lol can anyone tell me about how much power is lost with the 3 speed automatic as compared to a 5 speed? The motor seems to be running alright, but its everything it can do to keep up with the 5 speed cars. If its just a difference in the transmissions, then ill keep the motor and put it in my 5 speed car for next year. if not, im gonna trade it off for a bone stock 5 speed car and just build one for next year.
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