I'm running a functional ram-air setup right now through the factory airbox. Now I would like to have the advantage of a larger plenum and the conical filter, but I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen numbers comparing the two. Problem is- the CAI I'm looking at doesn't line up with the port on my hood. So it's got to be one or the other. I'd appreciate any ideas. I'm half tempted to keep the ram-air though just because it's kind of unique to have a ram-air hood that's actually hooked up lol.
I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but at least I'm a pretty color
ram air really doesnt occur till high speeds, cold air doesnt really occur till winter. either will do pretty much the same. and no i am not joking.
I know you're not joking. I can feel the ram air start to work at aobut 45-50 mph. The main reason I was considering a CAI (and no, I'm not hard-set on that, I'm one of the ones that believes WAI and CAI are just a matter of what you think looks neater), is as I mentioned for the larger intake volume. I'm just wondering if it's worth the trouble of getting one and doing it. Because I definately pick up some effect (granted, its on the old butt-dyno) with the ram air when I'm at speed, but I'm wondering if the pressure I get from the ram air is giving me as much power as the volume I would pick up from a larger plenum/conical air filter.
I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but at least I'm a pretty color
I have both. I modified my AEM CAI to remove restrictive bend at TB, and also made ducting using sheet aluminum to direct cold air to the sealed inner fender well where the air filter is. Noticeable improvement at highway speeds, less throttle needed for cruising, etc..
heres my set up, i had to trim the ram air hood a bit to clear but i have a K&N wai with the ram air hood
you can't really have a con airfilter with a true ram air...
even if the cold air intake would line up... it wouldn't really do much difference... the "ram" air hood is only usefull when having a direct sealed tunel passage from the scoop on the hood to the engine's intake manifold in order to "ram" the air into the engine, which only really helps you once you get speed going... (which is what i presume you curently have)
the cold air intake however much ppl like to say: "it gets cold air from outside and makes more power!!!" , the only help it really gives you is easier to suck in it's air through bottom end when you take off...(as compared to it with the stock air box etc)
,here in sudbury ontario... it goes down to -40C during the winter and +30C during the summer (-40F in the winter to 86F in the summer) that's 126 degrees F of difference... and my car doesn'T seem to have any more balls in the winter then summer... so how could a little skimpy 5 to 10 degrees of colder air from outside the car make THAT big of a difference? it doesn'T
if you have a TRUE ram air... i say KEEP the ram air!
^
cold air will give you more power and tq it is dyno proven... why do you think the temp is on the dyno sheet....
only prob is a "cai" dosent really get cold air...
and you can have a cone filter ram air intake as long as it is inside of
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direct sealed tunel passage from the scoop on the hood to the engine's intake manifold
"There is no point in looking fast if your not."
true dat about the cone airfilter... i thought about that but i didn't really think it had been done... as far as what's better with the ram air or the cai... depends on what you have to do really... either way you can't dyno proove this cause the ram air only gets it's power when the car's going 35+ mph and the air gets shoved into the engine(which doesn't happen when you dyno a car), sooo... on the dyno... a ram air probably woudn't even add anything as far as i know...
it's all about preference though... i personaly would keep the ram air... everyone and their grandmother has a cai nowadays
Thanks for the input guys. I think I'm gonna stick with my ram air for now- and yes, it is true ram air, functional hoodscoop leading directly into the airbox.
I do like that cutout with the WAI you've got going on there, cchevyboy. I might look into doing something like that at some point.
I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but at least I'm a pretty color
JD, just a heads up...true ram air is like on race cars wheere it goes straight to the TB....
the more air turns, the more it slows down...
the way i had mine setup when i made my hood, it was straight to the TB no bends in the hose, etc...
<img src="http://www.angelfire.com/md/TOWSONFTBLPLYR/hood2.jpg">
also if you check karos setup on his car where he removed the headlight.... thats another example.
or if you have a indy TB setup...
<img src="http://members.aol.com/BlckRseZ26/sunfire1.jpg">
so when the hood is closed air comes right in the school in right into the TB...
yours is effective, and functional, but the box and stock hose kinda work against the velocity. if you dont mind me saying
Thanks for straightening me out on that man.
I guess what I have is Pontiac's VERSION of ram air. lol. That engine looks super niiice by the way.
I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but at least I'm a pretty color
just putting the info out there...
I saw on a show that "RAM AIR" doesn't actually happen unless you going like Mach 1.... i know sounds stupid but the term "ram air" is miss leading.... your better off just sticking a cold air intake tube down behind your front bumper or something....
Oh and one more thing i missed... the RK sport Hoods for sunfires (and cavaliers if they are the same design) is use less to use... look under your hood where the air is directed over your engine... drive around for a while and then pop your hood and feel how hot it is where the air is brought threw the hood... now think for a second.. how is that going to bring in cold air... then secondly take a look down the inlet on top of the hood and you will see how restrictive it is....
it's perhaps restrictive... such things would have to be tested... no one can specualte if it's too restrictive or not... i mean going at 60 mph.. stick your hand out the window and you see how much force and speed air has...
and as we all know... the ram air hood will only bring in cold air while in motion.. when the vehicle is stoped... you will get warmer air. so it would be best to feel that inside of the hood while traveling at 30 mph instead of stoped on the side of the road where all the heat is building up in your hood(kinda hard to d0)
besides... the goal of a ram air is not to use colder air... it's to get more air pushed in to the engine... kinda like a cheap turbo that only works when you're at higher speeds
Yes but it wont actualy "Ram Air" into your engine unless your going like Mach 1.... trust me... i watched a show on this and they did tests and you will not ram air into your engine... just spend your money on a short ram intake and you should be good to go
Supercharged 2.4L
gab simard wrote:it's perhaps restrictive... such things would have to be tested... no one can specualte if it's too restrictive or not... i mean going at 60 mph.. stick your hand out the window and you see how much force and speed air has...
and as we all know... the ram air hood will only bring in cold air while in motion.. when the vehicle is stoped... you will get warmer air. so it would be best to feel that inside of the hood while traveling at 30 mph instead of stoped on the side of the road where all the heat is building up in your hood(kinda hard to d0)
besides... the goal of a ram air is not to use colder air... it's to get more air pushed in to the engine... kinda like a cheap turbo that only works when you're at higher speeds
the air thats pushing against your hand at that speed is usually less than the amount of air the engine is taking in at that speed.
for ram air to occur, you have to cram as much as to go over atmoshperic pressure (i believe thats the term as its described)... similar to how people run 4psi or 5 psi...
the engine takes in alot at speed, but it takes higher speeds, decently above 60 to have ram air create a 1psi higher than whats being taken in.
i can post some links if need be
CAI will give you better high end performance, whereas a WAI or Short-Ram will give you better low-end performence.
At least that is my understanding.
-- The The One One --
<IMG SRC="http://registry.gmenthusiast.com/images/neo32843/personal_pic.gif">
Hey neo- where'd you get that intake you're running? The bend in it looks like it might work without having to modify my hood too much. The way this conversation is going, I'm thinking I'll get better result out of my OHV of Fury with a WAI, I'm a big fan of low-end. I don't take it to the strip, but I would like to get into autox, so low-end punch is definately what I'm looking for.
I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but at least I'm a pretty color
neo32843 (The The One One) wrote:CAI will give you better high end performance, whereas a WAI or Short-Ram will give you better low-end performence.
At least that is my understanding.
not exactly.... at agile auto here in baltimore
on the same engine, dynoed at 9.1 whp with an aem short ram
the second short ram barely passed 6whp
but then on a dyno of a aem long ram it was 7. something
however with another brands long ram it was 8.7 and with a homemade one.
each intake took two runs and tested in feb with the bay doors open, so it was low temp.
however, it proves that the size of the pipe, how many bends, the distance of the total pipe length, and how sharply the air funnels at the TB will determine how much power you get.
if you think about it, with our cars, the 52mm for the 2200 and 2.4 have a decent funnel to it. but if you go too large a pipe, like 3 inch inner diameter... you can create a bottleneck at the end.
however 2.75 pipe which most intakes are made with is the outer diameter, the inner diamter of that is 2.63.
if you find pipe that is outer diameter 3 inch, then inside will be around 2.88
the difference in those .12 can make a difference on air velocity and volume. intakes are pretty much simple, but the thought of bigger pipe is better can cost power.
ok ok but lets not turn this into a wai vrs. cai thread lol there`s allready enough of those... we're talking about ram air here...
now..
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the air thats pushing against your hand at that speed is usually less than the amount of air the engine is taking in at that speed.
now that i think of it.. you're probably right about that... but the only thing i still ahve to say about this is than, the hole on your scoop is 3-4 times the size of the throttle body opening... the opening gradualy gets smaller and then into the throttle body... that alone crams a lot more air into there then if it were just a plain pipe size hole the same size as the throttle body opening... technicaly all the air that agets pushed into the scoop isn`t comming out! it's got to go somewhere... so even if the air on the outside of the car is not traveling faster then the air going through the throttle body, i still beleive it will be cramming lots of air in there. if a gallon of air per second can go through the scoop hole... and ohly half a litre a second could go through a hole the size of the throttle body... since the air going through the scoop isn'T gona come back out the same way... and as more air is pushing it in... it's going to compress itself and get cramed inthere to make a higher volume of air actualy compress itself through...
lol lots of writing eh?
anyways i'm not saying your wrong but... this is just a thought..
other facts to keep in mind:
2002 firebird 5.7L; hp: 310 @ 5200 RPM torque: 340 @ 4000 RPM
2002 firebird 5.7L with RAM AIR INDUCTION package: hp:325 @ 5200 RPM torque: 350 @ 4000 RPM
:p
^ not a lot of writing.... ie see post about fur in the AG forum.
and gap? your thery is no good... because like event said you still have a bottleneck(which the air has to be crammed into as you said which will slow it down) and that creates back pressure which decreases velosity which is what you are trying to get from a ram air intake.
"There is no point in looking fast if your not."
ok... i still think ram air is good though :p
Yea i know what your trying to get at, and yea i guess it works some what, like im not saying it doesnt work at all, and i have 3 different sets up i can go with on my car and the one your talking about is one of them as it is a very logical way of doing it... I also drive a 2002 Trans Am with the Ram air hood and its a lot different design then that of the Jbody hoods.... it doesn't actually go over the engine.... the air goes in the front of the scoops and drops straight down basically into the intake, And the scoops are a lot less restrictive....
gab simard wrote:ok ok but lets not turn this into a wai vrs. cai thread lol there`s allready enough of those... we're talking about ram air here...
now..
its not, i was just addressing above who said cold air an high speed, and wai and low speeds
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now that i think of it.. you're probably right about that... but the only thing i still ahve to say about this is than, the hole on your scoop is 3-4 times the size of the throttle body opening... the opening gradualy gets smaller and then into the throttle body... that alone crams a lot more air into there then if it were just a plain pipe size hole the same size as the throttle body opening... technicaly all the air that agets pushed into the scoop isn`t comming out! it's got to go somewhere... so even if the air on the outside of the car is not traveling faster then the air going through the throttle body, i still beleive it will be cramming lots of air in there. if a gallon of air per second can go through the scoop hole... and ohly half a litre a second could go through a hole the size of the throttle body... since the air going through the scoop isn'T gona come back out the same way... and as more air is pushing it in... it's going to compress itself and get cramed inthere to make a higher volume of air actualy compress itself through...
lol lots of writing eh?
anyways i'm not saying your wrong but... this is just a thought..
other facts to keep in mind:
2002 firebird 5.7L; hp: 310 @ 5200 RPM torque: 340 @ 4000 RPM
2002 firebird 5.7L with RAM AIR INDUCTION package: hp:325 @ 5200 RPM torque: 350 @ 4000 RPM
:p
when cars are dyno tested, ram air DEFINATELY isnt occuring. the car is not even in motion, and fans dont exactly put out THAT much air... a simple computer mod can increase power. its like how the 2200 in the cavaliers is rated at 115hp and 135 torque...
but if you look at the SAME EXACT engine in a s-10, its 120hp, and 140 torque.
heres to articles about ram air on different engines. all engines are air pumps and the speeds are pretty much the same in both vehicle comparisons.
http://www.snowgoercanada.com/tech_ram_air.shtml
and
http://www.vetteguru.com/ramair/
just makes you think about if ram air is that effective, then wouldnt most all cars have less kinks and turns in the hoses, and a direct to the TB ram air system? think about how much better gas mileage could be achieved.
as it stands at normal car speeds, 100mph and so... anything below that, it doesnt occur.
a few other books, you might wanna check out is
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0837603099/qid=1117751641/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3979771-0496610?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0837601428/qid=1117751734/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3979771-0496610?v=glance&s=books
both are REALLY good selections on this topic. the first book is more tech and theory, the second book tends to show more real world situations.
