What would happen if the timing chain tensioner were to become forzen in the collapsed position? what kinda symptoms would you see?
the tensioner takes up the slack coming off the crank... before it gets to the exhaust cam....
What would happen if you had a loose timing chain on these engines?
Could this cause a ticking noise coming from the exhaust cam tower?
like from the valves slapping closed prematurely due to lack of tension on the chain?
Well if the plunger because stuck close, meaning all the way down then you would have too much slack on the chain and the cams, crank can jump the chain.. LIKE mine did last summer.. Damaged 11 out of the 16 valves that slapped the pistons.. My plunger depressed because of the low oil pressure which wouldnt allow the plunger to extend halfway like its supposed to be.
Your ticking noise is just a common problem with our 2.4's and the lifters.. If thats what your having the try using some thicker oil.. That should help a bit.
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
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He is correct. You could jump timing. As for the ticking noise being common issue with a 2.4 that is a first. Are you sure you do not have a exhaust leak?
FU Tuning
I had a faulty timing chain tensioner.. I just fixed it about 2 weeks ago.
At idle, there was alot of tapping coming from the top of the motor.. When I say idle, i mean like 650- an auto 2.4. If the car was cold, it wouldnt make the noise until the oil pressure & rpms came down a little bit..
I replaced the oil tensioner w/ one of the older styles which actually has a spring in it, & doesnt rely on oil pressure. Those newer ones are trouble, if they aren't set correctly after being replaced- it doesn't work.
I didnt drive the car at all after hearing the tapping in the top end, jumping timing is very much possible!
Do a search for chain tensioner- been discussed alot.
There is noting wrong with the new style tensioner as long as you follow the instructions. Both of my current 2.4's and my previous one in the 02 all had the tick noise. Its part of the 2.4 package.
mitdr774 wrote:There is noting wrong with the new style tensioner as long as you follow the instructions. Both of my current 2.4's and my previous one in the 02 all had the tick noise. Its part of the 2.4 package.
Well, that is fine if you dont care about performance or economy, or just use your 2.4 to cruise about town.
But in my situation the "tick" is tripping my knock sensor. my ECU thinks my engine is knocking, so it goes into a saftey mode, killing my timing in hopes of avoiding knock.
Also, the ECU "learns" the octane of your fuel based on the absece or presence of knock signal. the more knock the lower octane gas it assumes you run.
So in my case, the tick is making my engine think i am running crap gas, so it defaults to the low octane spark maps.
So it is like a double whammy. 2 different power killers all coming from that "tick"
If you didnt have the tools or knowledge of how all that works... you would never think your tick was anything more than annoying.
but i have dropped well over $2000 into performance goodies in my car.... only to find out my "tick" is sucking out as much performance as i can pump into it.
So i am doing all i can to find and fix my tick. didnt spend all that money just to compensate for a "tick" and break even.
RedDevil wrote:I had a faulty timing chain tensioner.. I just fixed it about 2 weeks ago.
I replaced the oil tensioner w/ one of the older styles which actually has a spring in it, & doesnt rely on oil pressure. Those newer ones are trouble, if they aren't set correctly after being replaced- it doesn't work.
The "new" tensioner i got was a 2 piston design... the inner piston was spring loaded... once installed, you had to "pop" it loose so the spring extended... then the outter piston was oil pressure activated.
It looked like the original one was the same way... but the "spring loaded" inner piston was frozen about 1/4 way out. after cleaning off the gunk and messing with it a bit i got it to extend fully. Mine is a 2002... not sure where they used the "older style" but mine seemed to have the half spring and half oil pressure one from the factory.
John Higgins wrote:mitdr774 wrote:There is noting wrong with the new style tensioner as long as you follow the instructions. Both of my current 2.4's and my previous one in the 02 all had the tick noise. Its part of the 2.4 package.
I beg to differ on that.
On what part???
If your tick is loud enough to trip the knock sensor its something bigger than a "tick". You dont have to try to explain to me how an engine and PCM work. I spent 7 years doing driveablity for GM dealers. Even with a loose wrist pin in my 02's origional engine i didnt loose timing as it didnt create the correct frequency for knock. That noise was far louder than the 2.4 tick.
You have the newer style tensioner. Same as my 98 and 02 have.
$2000 is only a drop in the bucket to some of us when it comes to engine cost.
mitdr774 wrote:
If your tick is loud enough to trip the knock sensor its something bigger than a "tick". You dont have to try to explain to me how an engine and PCM work. I spent 7 years doing driveablity for GM dealers. Even with a loose wrist pin in my 02's origional engine i didnt loose timing as it didnt create the correct frequency for knock. That noise was far louder than the 2.4 tick.
You have the newer style tensioner. Same as my 98 and 02 have.
$2000 is only a drop in the bucket to some of us when it comes to engine cost.
I am not trying to out do anyone here. nor do i claim to have more or know more than anyone else....Just saying that when people tell me "yeah your car is quick, but i remember it being faster when you first got it when it was just stock with the SC."
and i have always felt the same way.... but i thouht i just "got used to" the speed... and needed more to keep the adrenaline going.
But i have tons of stuff in her that should make her pretty quick... but it never feels as strong as i remembered her.
the more homework i do, and the better tools i get... the more i notice what is really going on here....
i have a ODB scanner that monitors KR for me... and even running 93 octane and octane booster.... i am STILL seeing several degrees of knock retard under heavy acceleration. ALL THE TIME... almost anytime i get above 70% throttle my KR indicator jumps.
I have HPT on the way, and should be here this weekend... so i can do some actual datalogging and get you all some real figures....
but the way i see it there should be NO REASON for 2-6 degrees of Knock retard even with high octane and octane booster.... i am half tempted to run her down to fumes.... and put in a gallon of 87 or so.... and see if it gets any worse or stays the same.
i just think this tick is tripping my sensor, and that is killing my timing curves, which is robbing me lots of power. My engine has all these goodies, but the computer thinks i am running crap for gas, and so it takes all these parts and upgraded just to keep her at a decent level.
Once i get HPT, i will be able to see my spark tables, and compare them to my actual figures, and see where it is at....
As you said, knock sensors look for a frequency.... volume doesnt matter... It could be inaudiable to our ears, and trip the sensor... or it could be deafening, and not trip the sensor at all... all it takes is something to duplicate that frequency range, and like magic, your race car reverts to grocery getter mode.... so your loud wrist pin may not have tripped it... buy my lil tick may.... something is tripping it.... and it SHOULDNT be actual knock... not in the situations i am seeing it in.... cold engines, cold day, perfect AF, high octane fuels.... it just doesnt add up...
I have never heard the "2.4 tick" all the 2.4's i have heard sounded great... i have several friends with them.... so my "lifter tick" as MANY MANY people say it sounds like is the only 2.4 noise i know...
I am told that a wrist pin is a distinctive "double tick" and different than a lifter or valve or rod bearing noise. again, i have not heard any of the above, besides lifter ticks (and SERIOUS rod knocks)
but i have asked MANY people to give my engine a listen... from fellow car ethusiasts to mechanics, to random joes on the street... anyone who hears it says "yeah that sounds like lifters to me"
I wouldnt mind the ticking.... but i am convinced that that tick is killing my performance. There is no reason my engine should be knocking when it does.
i feel like the fat kid who orders a big mac value meal with extra sauce and a side of ranch, supersized with extra salt and a side of ranch for the fries.... but then orders a diet pop.
what is the point of dumping all this stuff into a car just to have some stupid lil thing taking out as much performance as you are adding in.
Have you paid any attention to your manifold air temps? Are you sure that you dont have any internal issues such as a cracked piston or a spot on the head that causes a hot spot? DO you have tranny and motor mounts? There are many things that can cause false knock or ever real knock. I would advise against putting 87 octane in the car. Octane boosters dont do anything either.
well if you are refering to IAT then yes... i watch them closely.... with cold weather in cleveland... 30 degrees outside air.... i rarely saw temps above 80 IAT... and still got knock.
if i let temps get up there.... i have had them peak at up to 150.... and knock doesnt seem to change much. still retards at the same points all the time...
If it was REAL knock... it should change based on all this stuff....
i have the stock mounts on the engine and tranny.... I just put a new head on, including new lifters, cams, and valves... so entire top end will be different.... so once i fire her up this weekend... it should tell me alot....
i HOPE that the tick is gone, and with it goes my crazy Knock retards....
but if not.... i may be looking into a bottom end rebuild.
and with the 87 octane..... i am under the impression that as much "knock" as my car sees.... .i am already in the "low octane" spark maps.... so it should be running in a mode for that 87 anyway.... and still knocking even then... So if it was REAL knock, putting in 87 should make it knock way worse. and putting in 94 should calm it down if not eliminate it entirely.
but that is the whole thing... it seems to be there no matter what. independent of fuel or temps or anything else that effects knock.... which is why i have to assume it is false knock.... and indeed is something mechanical, and not effected by the other factors.
I dont know anything about any retards, but I took the time to look up the tensioners to show what I mean.
Older Timing Chain Tensioner. One piece96-97?
Newer Tensioner. 97+?
Along w/ this !!
The 2nd one was not working very well for my car, so I replaced it w/ the older version. Much better !!
NAPA ONLINE
ah... ok... I have seen those before. Thought those were just for a different engine or something. Didnt realize THAT was the old style. i figured the old and new LOOKED alike but had different internals. now i know, and feel like retarded.
if only i could make my car feel the same way.
I too just recently replaced the tensioner in my 98' Sunfire with the "older" one-piece design. GM #24573179 for everyone's reference. I like the "older" style better; it worked great for about 2 weeks until my car was totalled in an accident. Just finshed rebuilding the head and replacing ALL the timing components. Insurance company considered the car a "total loss" as the damage was estimated at $6500. If anybody needs a 2.4 in NE Ohio, I could find out where this motor went.
