What are your personal talking points for each side? Why would you personally prefer one over the other?
Assume the system is either 100% private, or the current mix of private/public, but not 100% public.
Also, any links to candidates discussing this during the '08 debates would be GREATLY appreciated.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Private
Because parents who put their kids on a private school usually care more about their children than those who choose a public school.
and that's why you find more bad influence in a private school than a government school.
Private influence Vs Public influence
Not everyone can afford a private school and pay for college at the same time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:56 PM
spoiler wrote:Because parents who put their kids on a private school usually care more about their children than those who choose a public school.
Or, the kid has been kicked out of all the public schools? (I knew a lot of those guys growing up playing hockey lol).
spoiler wrote:Not everyone can afford a private school and pay for college at the same time.
Assume tax rebates for private schooling (as proposed by most candidates during election season).
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
OHV notec wrote:spoiler wrote:Because parents who put their kids on a private school usually care more about their children than those who choose a public school.
Or, the kid has been kicked out of all the public schools? (I knew a lot of those guys growing up playing hockey lol).
why did they get kicked out of all public schools?
The tax system in this country is really messed up when it comes to education. (ok, when it comes to everything)
Examples: (1) Parents who pay for a private education for their students, must still pay taxes to fund public schools....that their kids do not attend. (2) Adults who payed their taxes, while sending their kids to public schools, must continue to pay the taxes, until they die. (3) People who have no children, laugh when they see a child get hurt, and make youtube greatest hits videos of starving african babies with flies on their faces, must also pay the taxes.
Why are these people being taxed for a product that is inferior, or that they never have used, or never will use. Its not the same thing as fire dept, or police services. You "use" them by them being on standby in case they are ever needed. (just like car insurance ok?)
Did you know that before there was a federal law mandated public education of children, about 98% of American kids were already in school.....sometimes only til the sixth grade, but still.
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“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
I went to a public school from grades 1 thru 8, then went to private school for highschool to play hockey.
Having been to both, I would take private school anyday over public. My kids will also attend private school someday.
Public schooling was a joke.
Three words: TEACHERS+UNION+DONATIONS
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“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
spoiler wrote:OHV notec wrote:spoiler wrote:Because parents who put their kids on a private school usually care more about their children than those who choose a public school.
Or, the kid has been kicked out of all the public schools? (I knew a lot of those guys growing up playing hockey lol).
why did they get kicked out of all public schools?
Obviously not ALL, but those they had previously attended. They were the 'trouble-makers'. They also had the intelligence of 5 year olds, so they probably brought standardized test scores down as well
ScottaWhite wrote:Why are these people being taxed for a product that is inferior, or that they never have used, or never will use. Its not the same thing as fire dept, or police services. You "use" them by them being on standby in case they are ever needed. (just like car insurance ok?)
Those children have been educated and are now your doctors, firemen (most have college degrees), and lawyers (this might be a bad example lol). I don't know about you, but I'd prefer people in those positions to be educated and competent in their professions. What would happen to the cost of health care if there were even fewer doctors? The University of Arizona has a great medical school, and it's a public school. I'm going to try and find figures, but I'd guess almost half the doctors in this state were trained there.
I do agree with you about 'required' education though, but it's not quite relevant to the topic at hand (at least right now).
J03Y wrote:Having been to both, I would take private school anyday over public. My kids will also attend private school someday.
Can you be more specific? What stands out in your mind?
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
rule of thumb around here is if you come from a public school into a private school then they hold you back a grade because you are that far behind
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OHV notec wrote:J03Y wrote:Having been to both, I would take private school anyday over public. My kids will also attend private school someday.
Can you be more specific? What stands out in your mind?
There are quite a few things that stand out to me. For one, just the overall quality of teachers. Their dedication to the student and to a politically/culturally diverse curriculum.
Another would be just the basic teaching of manners and respect. You are(or we were) held to a higher standard than a public school on many levels, including grades, study habits, self accountability, responsibility, sportsmanship, personal appearance, etc.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:24 AM
Cavalier2000 wrote:rule of thumb around here is if you come from a public school into a private school then they hold you back a grade because you are that far behind
Does this actually happen regularly, or is it just a saying meant to demean the public schools? Like I said, many of the private school students I knew weren't very bright. Are these kids being sent to private school because they were flunking out of public?
J03Y wrote:For one, just the overall quality of teachers. Their dedication to the student and to a politically/culturally diverse curriculum.
Another would be just the basic teaching of manners and respect. You are(or we were) held to a higher standard than a public school on many levels, including grades, study habits, self accountability, responsibility, sportsmanship, personal appearance, etc.
This brings up something else I wanted to tough on. How are public schools so vulnerable to legal action, but public schools are not? My mom works at what is quite possibly the worst high school in the state, and I know their district will settle any claim less than $30k out of court, no questions asked. Private schools don't have this problem why? Is it just that they are more willing to take the matter to court? Or is there something somewhere in a contract that prevents the ridiculous lawsuits?
Do private schools still employ physical means for disciplinary measures?
My teachers were always there after hours, available over the phone when at home, whenever a student need help. However, I also went to what was probably the leading district in the state, and we had classes and programs available that private schools wouldn't even offer. All this even though we were located in the middle of the suburban ghetto lol.
Are public schools so far past saving? Could we not simply offer a little more for better teachers, better legal defense, and go back to expelling students who refuse to properly participate? If we simply let students drop out when they wanted, it would keep costs down by reducing staff requirements, and also likely minimize disciplinary actions required? Would graduate quality not increase if we went back to flunking kids who don't pay attention and don't do the work?
Actually, reading back through that, it seems poor parenting is more at fault than the school system.
Anyway, if the public school system were eliminated (as most of the '08 candidates seemed to prefer), would the quality of education in this country go up? Would the quality of life go up?
How much does the average person pay in taxes to support the public school system in your state?
If education remained mandatory (until 16, or 18, depending on your state I guess), and the public system was eliminated, how would the private system remain immune to the problems which currently impair the public system?
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
OHV notec wrote:Cavalier2000 wrote:rule of thumb around here is if you come from a public school into a private school then they hold you back a grade because you are that far behind
Does this actually happen regularly, or is it just a saying meant to demean the public schools? Like I said, many of the private school students I knew weren't very bright. Are these kids being sent to private school because they were flunking out of public?
maybe they are different in your area but around here private schooling is a "grade" or two higher than public. so what you learned senior year in public was taught freshman-soph year at private
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BTW: This is my Sig.
OHV notec wrote:This brings up something else I wanted to tough on. How are public schools so vulnerable to legal action, but public schools are not? My mom works at what is quite possibly the worst high school in the state, and I know their district will settle any claim less than $30k out of court, no questions asked. Private schools don't have this problem why? Is it just that they are more willing to take the matter to court? Or is there something somewhere in a contract that prevents the ridiculous lawsuits?
that's a good question. Possibly just the higher standards working. Not sure...I don't want to speculate.
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Do private schools still employ physical means for disciplinary measures?
wouldn't surprise me if some do still, but mine certainly did not.
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Are public schools so far past saving? Could we not simply offer a little more for better teachers, better legal defense, and go back to expelling students who refuse to properly participate? If we simply let students drop out when they wanted, it would keep costs down by reducing staff requirements, and also likely minimize disciplinary actions required? Would graduate quality not increase if we went back to flunking kids who don't pay attention and don't do the work?
I would argue anything is possible, although not probable. I think the whole "everyone deserves a trophy" philosophy applies here. I read a report the other day that average grades across the country are a full grade letter better now than 20 years ago. I can almost guarantee the students aren't a grade letter better, but the standards are relaxed.
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Actually, reading back through that, it seems poor parenting is more at fault than the school system.
agreed. 95% of the parents of the private school kids I went to school with were actually involved and cared, as opposed to many of my public school friends.
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How much does the average person pay in taxes to support the public school system in your state?
I pay just under $3000.
My tuition to high school was $6000 per year in the late 90's. My school also had zero state funding.
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If education remained mandatory (until 16, or 18, depending on your state I guess), and the public system was eliminated, how would the private system remain immune to the problems which currently impair the public system?
I think it's more about changing the culture of the student, not the schools. The private system would be no different than the public system is now if the rolls were reversed IMO.
i would do private, if possible once i finally have kids. the only part of private schools that would be subpar, IMHO, is the social side of things. for better or worse, you need your kids to be around the, um, less desirable side of society if for no other reason than to show them how not to be. beyond that the public school system is a joke, is completely broken, and doesnt adequately prepare our children for their future.
Quiklilcav wrote:Also, as mentioned above, the biggest problem with public schools is the teachers unions, where there is too much being done to protect the lazy, useless teachers. If the unions really want to do something good, they will reform themselves and start holding the teachers accountable for their performance and quality of education. The other thing about the public schools is that the majority of the teachers out there are teaching liberal rhetoric, and engraining our youth with that mindset.
The public school system is in need of a complete overhaul. They've continued to throw more and more money at the problem, but pumping money into a failing system isn't going to fix it. Fixing the problems is the only way it's going to get fixed.
But, HOW do we fix the problems?
Also, if public schools continue to decline, and private schools become more popular, what keeps them from also declining?
Teachers are a limited resource. So, can you afford to get rid of the "bad eggs" at the cost of enormous class sizes?
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
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When a public school sucks, and people pull their kids out to send them to private school, the public school still gets the same funding as it did before. When a private school loses enrollment, they also lose the money from those enrollments.
Atleast in Ohio if your child goes to a "failing school" which is determined by test scores, you can choose to send your child to a different school and the public school will pay the childs tuition to attend the other school. Around here the biggest one I hear of it Lima Senior High School and Lima Central Catholic. Lima Senior loses students every year therefore causing them to lose more money and therefore taking another honor studen out and sending them to LCC which makes LCC look better. So even though the parents are still paying taxes to Lima Senior they are breaking even or even doing better because Lima Public is paying for tuition at LCC.
"How much does the average person pay in taxes to support the public school system in your state?" OHV Notec-
No, no, no, not the average, but what is the median tax rate? The very wealthy pay the highest taxes, yet likely send their kids to an academy, or if it is in a great upperclass district, they'll go there. Schlepps who rent low-income housing and suck off the public tit, pay little if any taxes....send their bstrd children to crappy public schools, then blame all their woes on the government. Ooooooooooooooooo Kay. And yes, you too can become president!
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“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart
Quiklilcav wrote:OHV notec wrote:But, HOW do we fix the problems?
As I already explained, by being able to hold the teachers accountable for the quality of the education they provide. This means the unions need to be reformed, or done away with. There is way too much protection for the bad teachers.
I'm asking HOW we reform or get rid of the unions. If GM goes bankrupt, they can can the union, but the school system can't really do that. Can we offer more money to good teachers who sign on non-union? Or is that against some sort of a legal agreement?
Quiklilcav wrote:OHV notec wrote:Also, if public schools continue to decline, and private schools become more popular, what keeps them from also declining?
Competition. When a public school sucks, and people pull their kids out to send them to private school, the public school still gets the same funding as it did before. When a private school loses enrollment, they also lose the money from those enrollments. If they increase the cost, they will only drive out more students. The only way to survive is to improve.
Aren't public schools funded based on enrollment numbers? I doubt we'd give a school the same amount of money for teaching 10 students as 1000...?
Quiklilcav wrote:OHV notec wrote:Teachers are a limited resource. So, can you afford to get rid of the "bad eggs" at the cost of enormous class sizes?
Absolutely. Saying that we need to keep bad teachers because we can't afford to lose them is foolish. Our kids would be better off in larger classes with quality teachers who can do their job than to continue to let sh!tty teachers not do their job.
What percentage of teachers would you consider sub-standard? A teacher, no matter how excellent, can't run a grade school class of 60 students.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
I went to public schools, and turned out just fine (at least in my opinion lol...)
I'm all for pirate education....
oh wait... you said
PRIVATE. my bad.
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for some reason ALL of my friends who went to a private school (catholic or not) were introduced into drugs and/or violence alot earlier than i was(i went public).. im so against private schools just because of the fact of conformity... it doesn't even work... the fat kids are still fat the popular kids are still popular.. there is no conformity at all... yeah peoplr in public schhols all wear AE or Aero or Hollister// How that different than a uniform... Everyone is still differnet...
Sunb1rd(missed teh org) wrote:for some reason ALL of my friends who went to a private school (catholic or not) were introduced into drugs and/or violence alot earlier than i was(i went public).. im so against private schools just because of the fact of conformity... it doesn't even work... the fat kids are still fat the popular kids are still popular.. there is no conformity at all... yeah peoplr in public schhols all wear AE or Aero or Hollister// How that different than a uniform... Everyone is still differnet...
Since when is a private schools job to make the "fat kids not fat" or "the popular kids not poular"? That's honestly one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.
I went to public schools my entire way through school. Looking back on my school days. I honestly don't think I had any "bad" teachers. Every teacher I had was willing to help me after school or try and give me a little more one on one help if I was struggling during class ect. Teachers really are not paid that well as a result none of the teacher I had did it just for a job. I think each and every one of my teachers were teachers because they wanted to make a difference by teaching.
I really think the problem lies more in the parents of the students not taking a more active role in their childrens education. When I was little my parents did not just send me to school and expect them to teach me to learn to read and write ect. My parents taught me how to read and what sounds different letter combinations make, they made up little spelling tests so I would learn how to spell, they bought flash cards and taught me how to multiply and divide, they would make me show them what page we were on in my text books and ask questions from it to make sure I understood it. My parents always went to parent teacher conferences. They would not hesitate to call a teacher and see how I was doing. They would ask to see all my home work and it was all I was allowed to do until it was done.
Just like good work ethic was instilled in me so was good school ethic. I was told I only go to school for one reason to LEARN. I was taught to treat teachers and school administrators with respect. I was taught you do as you are told and that if you question it the proper way to handle it. I was taught not to be a disruption to other students and to ignore those who were as they feed off the stealing the attention from the teacher and other students. I was taught that in school you keep your mouth shut if you don't have anything nice to say to other students.
The next thing I feel is important to add is the quality of public education can greatly depend on the location of the school in the city. The schools in low income sections of the city are usually not as good as those in average to upper income areas. Plain and simply if the parents are loosers, the kids will be too. It is obviously more difficult for teachers to teach when dealing with poorly behaving children and kids who simply don't care about school. The expression the apple does not fall far from the tree is very true of young kids. So it is no surprise that parents who are successfully financially in life will live in a higher income area so their children will go to school in a higher income area. Generally speaking for the most part successfully parents produce successfully children.
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