GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:You're not supporting Germany or Japan either is the idea (seems they're your chief economic rivals)... Iraq isn't going to be on it's feet for another 25+ years, that's assuming they train a decent and loyal Military to protect the borders, and a decent and loyal Police force that can protect the interior.
Now, Patriot Act was only meant to be a temporary act and you know that Mrgto, we've gone around on this before. It's meant to give broader search and seizure powers in the furtherance of National Security, and so far, it's done the job, but it's not meant to supplant other laws.
Now, here's the thing that I ask you to do. Find out how many actual terror cells were found in the USA since the passing of the Patriot act. The exact number is 0. HLSA has stated it, FBI has stated it, hell, the NSA and NSIA have had leaked internal memos that describe the dearth of evidence there were other cells in North America.
From all the info that has been culled, the main series of attacks were meant to start in 2000, and end in late 2002. After the failure of the first round of attacks, and the subsequent rolling over of several key suspects, a lot of the plans were de-railled... the people either went back to where they came from, or stayed with no further contact. Of note, the Shoe bomber, Richard Reid, has been kept in protective custody since he was Arrested shortly after February 2002... he had been part of a small cell that would have done several high-visibility, low deathrate attacks. He is suspected to have given up information on the others, but as of yet, they were in Britian, and nothing else has been reported.
My question, because I know you're up on it a lot more than I am at this point, is:
a: how many challenges of the PA were there, and
b: how many of them were in direct relation to terrorist (both domestic and foreign) activities?
I'm not precisely certain, but I highly doubt that the lion's share of those cases heard and submitted had to deal with terrorism.
Here's the other thing, and I know you're going to say checks and balances, but I'm going to say it anyhow, and keep in mind I work for a police force whose scope is farther reaching than the FBI's and has more far-reaching laws at its disposal... There is a limit to how many laws you can give the police and not have it turn into a Police State. Frankly, I have no problems about being asked to comply with the giving of fingerprints, and I have no problem with the giving of DNA for comparison against a sample because, I know the science behind it, I DO NOT agree that Police agencies should be allowed under any circumstances be allowed to retain that information (fingerprint files and images, DNA matter) for future references, because that, frankly is an invasion of privacy. I have no problem with an agency with founded evidence of possible terrorist activities listening in to phone calls of which I may be party to, but, if it just turns up as awrong number, and all of a sudden I'm a suspect in something that patently doesn't involve me, I'm going to get bent out of shape.
Increased powers are nice, and keeping up with technolgy is essential to having security, but there are also issues of privacy and keeping police, and the government at large OUT OF MY HOUSE. You know the term slippery slope? I'm just wondering how much you're going to be wiling to trade away for the illusion of security. Point of fact, Terrorists can still enter the US, pretty much at will (take your pick: Mexico or Canada, however, it's a LOT harder to go through Canada); so the idea that you're any more safe is a fallacy... Giving greater search and seizure powers to the police only makes life less private for people that are law abiding.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:mrgto: the links are in there... they're just not highlighted.\
AGuSTiN wrote:The Patriot Act is a terrible thing, and I'm disheartned to know that so many of you would surrender some of your rights because someone told you it's for your own safety.
Let's be fair about this, it's been VERY clear the law hasn't identified ANY sleeper or active extremecist cells in this country.
But it has been used for abuse...
Alleged abuses under the PATRIOT Act
* In Las Vegas, police used the PATRIOT Act to subpoena two stockbrokers for evidence in a public official corruption case against a strip club owner (who ultimately pled guilty). Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that Section 314 of the act states it can be applied to activities "that may involve terrorist acts OR money-laundering activities". Accordingly, the federal investigators' actions did not exceed the authority of the PATRIOT Act. [8] ( http://yconservatives.com/Carmack-62.html )
* The FBI ordered a handful of journalists that had written about computer hacker Adrian Lamo to turn over their notes and other information under the auspices of the PATRIOT Act. Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that journalists -- like all other citizens -- are not privileged from being subjected to subpoenas when they possess information relevant to a criminal investigation.[9] ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/29/fbi_bypasses_first_amendment/ )
* Beyond the above examples, in September 2003, the New York Times reported that a study by Congress showed hundreds of cases where the PATRIOT Act was used to investigate non-terrorist crimes. [10] ( http://www.jointogether.org/sa/news/summaries/reader/0,1854,567051,00.html ). Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the Act is not limited to "terrorist crimes," and further that the New York Times report referred to above misconstrued the nature of many of the investigations conducted under the PATRIOT Act.
* In April 2003, Sami Omar Al-Hussayen was arrested on charges of supporting terrorism by maintaining several web sites that supported violent activities. [11] ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13072-2004Apr14.html ) This type of "guilt by association" was resurrected by the 1996 "anti-terrorism" act signed by President Clinton, but was further expanded under the PATRIOT Act. Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that prosecutors did not try Mr. Al-Hussayen because of his association with the website, but because he actively participated in raising money for terrorist organizations, recruiting terrorists, and disseminating inflammatory rhetoric via his website. Prosecutors said the sites included religious edicts justifying suicide bombings and an invitation to contribute financially to the militant Palestinian organization Hamas.
* In May 2004, the FBI cordoned off the entire block of a University at Buffalo associate art professor's house, impounding his computers, manuscripts, books, equipment for further analysis and The Buffalo Health Department temporarily condemned the house as a health risk after suspicious vials and bacterial cultures were discovered at his home. The professor, whose art involves the use of biology equipment as part of a project educating the public about the politics of biotechnology was charged with violations under the Section 175 of the US Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act which was expanded by the USA PATRIOT Act. [12] ( http://www.caedefensefund.org/ ) [13]
( http://www.newfarm.org/news/0604/061104/bio_artist.shtml ) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the investigation of Mr. Kurtz began after he called 911 to report that his 45-year-old wife had died overnight. At that point, police noticed a mobile DNA extraction laboratory and petri dishes containing E. coli bacteria in his home. Mr. Kurtz contended that the biological agents were being used in his latest art project, but police felt compelled to investigate further. Moreover, Mr. Kurtz was not charged with a violation of the PATRIOT Act or the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act.
* The ACLU was prevented from releasing the text of its countersuit challenging aspects of the PATRIOT Act because the government claimed it would violate secrecy provisions of the act. [14] ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51423-2004Apr28.html ) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that the ACLU's constitutional challenge was disclosed, and only the details of an ongoing federal investigation were redacted. Moreover, the secrecy provisions of the PATRIOT Act are subject to both judicial and congressional oversight.
* The maintainer of a TV-show fan website was charged with copyright infringement after the MPAA directed the FBI to obtain records from the site's Internet service provider about the site under the USA PATRIOT Act [15] ( http://www.sg1archive.com/nightmare.shtml ) [16] ( http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/07/27/129219.shtml?tid=153&tid=214&tid=129 ) Supporters of the PATRIOT Act point out that McGaughey was charged with copyright violations and computer fraud, and that the PATRIOT Act amended the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Accordingly, the use of the PATRIOT Act was entirely appropriate.
* Sherman Austin, anarchist and webmaster of Raise the Fist, plead guilty to violating 18 U.S.C. 842(p)[17] ( http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000842----000-.html ), a 1997 "anti-terrorism" statute authored by California Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein[18] ( http://feinstein.senate.gov/03Releases/r-bombmaking3.htm ) that prohibits the distribution of bombmaking information knowing or intending that the information will be used in a violent federal crime. Many wrongly assume this case was investigated or prosecuted using the PATRIOT Act.
* FBI agents used the powers in Section 213 (sneak and peak) to secretly search the home of Brandon Mayfield who was wrongly jailed for two weeks on suspicion of involvement in the Madrid train bombings. Agents seized three hard drives, 10 DNA samples preserved on cotton swabs and took 335 photos of personal items. Mayfield has filed a lawsuit against the U.S. government, contending that his rights were violated by his arrest and by the investigation against him. He also contends the Patriot Act is unconstitutional. [19]
mrgto wrote:How many of those cases have gone before federal appeals courts? And more importantly, how many have been turned over? See, when a case here in the US is turned OVER, that is a statement from the court saying something in the case was deemed unconstitutional.
AGuSTiN wrote:mrgto wrote:How many of those cases have gone before federal appeals courts? And more importantly, how many have been turned over? See, when a case here in the US is turned OVER, that is a statement from the court saying something in the case was deemed unconstitutional.
I'm not actually sure what you're saying, but two provisions in the Patriot Act have already been declared unconstitutional.
AGuSTiN wrote:The difference is that the Patriot Act actually authorizes many things that have been traditionally called abuses. Such as detaining people indefinitely, denying them due process, without letting them know why they're even in jail.
And just because other laws get abused all the time doesn't make me think "Oh OK that's right so it's OK then." I mean, is that what you expect me to think? Other laws will screw me so what's one more?
mrgto wrote:AGuSTiN wrote:The difference is that the Patriot Act actually authorizes many things that have been traditionally called abuses. Such as detaining people indefinitely, denying them due process, without letting them know why they're even in jail.
And just because other laws get abused all the time doesn't make me think "Oh OK that's right so it's OK then." I mean, is that what you expect me to think? Other laws will screw me so what's one more?
Give me an example of someone(by name) who has been held indefinatly via a provision(State it) from the Patriot Act.
Well, then don't bitch if they take it away then the FBI can't investigate someone because they don't have enough evidence to get a search warrant the normal ways because some idiot lefty judge says so. THEN they go on to commit terrorist acts.
Have you actually ever sat down to read the patriot act?