Hey everyone,
I just got my HPT pro software and have been reading up on their site and here and am becoming more familiar with things... anyway I mostly just wanted to see what people with the Hahn kit have tuned and how different tunes have worked out
so far I've just raised my speed and rev limiters and spark rampouts and added 1 degree of timing across the idle row (to improve idle a bit d/t my Patriot cams rouger idle)
I'm trying to get my scanner configured and get my LM-1 to log in it (but having trouble getting any EIOs to show up in my table to configure) - trying to figure that out - searching for what you need on either site takes a ton of time and doesn't always yield the results I'm after...
Here's my major info/mods: 2002 LS Sport coupe, 2.2 Eco, Manual Trans, Patriot Stage II assembled head, Patriot cams (are n/a cams - similar to a stage 1 cam I believe - considering putting stockers back in), GM adj cam gears - currently set at int ~1 deg ret and exh ~2-3 deg adv (was just playing around and is just what I left it at since last fall - idles better too), stock bottom end, stock intake mani (would like to upgrade to a Saab or 2.4 HO), RSM 62mm TB...
I know some people have ditched the FMU set up and tuned for larger injectors and such, but I'm not there yet...
I would like to get my idle straightened out (no stalling etc. - has never been right since my head and cams were installed by retards) and my fuel pressure -- My base is set at 35 psi but triggers a rich code, I had turned it down without a gauge keeping an eye on my WBO2 to make sure I didn't go too lean anywhere, was fine since like January but I've been having problems now when its hot and getting it restarted (stumbles then stalls) and thought this might be it - checked the pressure today when I finally picked up a fp gauge (didn't feel like taking my schrader valve out for the one in the hahn kit & cuz I installed the kit in a mechanic's garage) and it was 30, so i decided to turn it back up to 35 for the time being now that I can log stuff (well I'm working on the scanner at least)...
a question is: should I turn the base fp up to stock setting (my Haynes says 40-57, Hahn manual for stage I/stock inj says 55) and then adjust the injector constant (I know there is a ratio conversion somewhere - are stock injectors 24#? mine are 32#)? or just turn the fp down based on how much fuel the PCM is pulling out (I'm assuming in my STFT?)?
Also when I get around to tuning the VE, should I just get my FMU adjusted so that the boost afr is mostly where I want it and then adjust the VE table wherever its not?
I have an 02 so the PE I think is pretty good but probably needs some tweaking...I also am assuming I need to pull some timing out in my 100 and 105(?if its used) kpa cells?
thats where I'm at now, sorry for the long-ass post, if anyone can answer any of my questions or direct me to answers/threads I'd appreciate it, and if anyone wants to share what they've done to there's or give feedback/suggestions on my setup, that is also appreciated, or anyone near Allentown PA who wants to bounce stuff back and forth...thanks,
Matt
I would go back to stock fuel pressure use HPT to adjust the injectors (do you have larger injectors?). I would also let the FMU supply the main fuel and use HPT to fine tune the fuel and timing.
FU Tuning
Yeah... what john said. I would also suggest that you get an electric Fuel Pressure Gauge for in cabin so you can keep an eye on the FMU. Also keep a spare set of guts for the FMU so if it breaks you have the parts and tools with you.
I am not sure if the BEGI FMUs break often but I know mine broke and it cost me a tow home and 3 days to get the parts in. It is a super easy fix though. Takes all of 5 mins. Sorry got off topic there. Good luck with the tune.
Darryn
2004 Cavalier coupe, 5 speed, White
GO
Hahn Stage 2, Eagle rods, Wiseco 8.9, SS Valves, Dual valve springs, valve job, Ti seats and retainers
spec stage 3, Fidanza 7.5lb flywheel, Short Shifter
Slotted and dimpled rotors, EBC green stuff
SHOW
VIS EVO CF hood, KOBE KAM 5 17", Nexxen N3000, Ebay Black tails and filler, 5% tint
Gold line springs, Tokiko D-spec struts
ELECTRONICS
Kenwood in-dash DVD and Navigation, single Kicker CompVR
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2974835
John Higgins wrote:I would go back to stock fuel pressure use HPT to adjust the injectors (do you have larger injectors?). I would also let the FMU supply the main fuel and use HPT to fine tune the fuel and timing.
yes the Hahn kit comes with 32# Accel injectors...I can't remeber but I think the stock 02 Eco injectors are 24#??
Darryn DiSanto wrote:Yeah... what john said. I would also suggest that you get an electric Fuel Pressure Gauge for in cabin so you can keep an eye on the FMU. Also keep a spare set of guts for the FMU so if it breaks you have the parts and tools with you.
I am not sure if the BEGI FMUs break often but I know mine broke and it cost me a tow home and 3 days to get the parts in. It is a super easy fix though. Takes all of 5 mins. Sorry got off topic there. Good luck with the tune.
Darryn
Darryn, you didn't have any problems adjusting the FMU once you increased base pressure and changed the injector constant (wasn't too rich in boost?)?
Have you had problems with fuel pressure being inconsistent (reason for the gauge)? Did you have to order the spare guts from Hahn since, I think, they altered the unit b/c all the nipples aren't being used?...or from BEGi?
I also changed my display from basic or whatever to standard and realized my PE delay was 5600 so changed that to zero and made my TPS vs. PE 25% of what is was...
should I also change my commanded AFR from 13 to like 12 or 11.8 or something?...or will the FMU take care of that?
thanks!
It can be a little bit of a PITA. You have to screw out the little screw so it allows more boost to bypass it. Your goal would still be 90PSI of fuel at full boost. Make sure to keep an eye on your AFR while you are attempting to find that sweet spot.
You did good to mess with the PE enable table and lowering the commanded AFR...
Now if you haven't already... Read the sticky at the top of the forum that is how to tune in HP Tuners. Read it all the way through 2 times.
Follow that how to. If you run into any more issues post them up. We will try and help.
2004 Cavalier coupe, 5 speed, White
GO
Hahn Stage 2, Eagle rods, Wiseco 8.9, SS Valves, Dual valve springs, valve job, Ti seats and retainers
spec stage 3, Fidanza 7.5lb flywheel, Short Shifter
Slotted and dimpled rotors, EBC green stuff
SHOW
VIS EVO CF hood, KOBE KAM 5 17", Nexxen N3000, Ebay Black tails and filler, 5% tint
Gold line springs, Tokiko D-spec struts
ELECTRONICS
Kenwood in-dash DVD and Navigation, single Kicker CompVR
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2974835
What injector constants are people running on Ecos w/ the 32lbrs at stock 55psi fuel pressure?
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
BlackEco wrote:What injector constants are people running on Ecos w/ the 32lbrs at stock 55psi fuel pressure?
...that was my next question... bump
ok so if I use Shifted's ratio technique in the faq's on hpt site with my injector constant of 0.17760 and assuming the eco injectors are 24# then I should get 0.13320 as my new injector constant...
but in Shifted's faq his constant for a 2.4 with 24# injectors is 0.20250...question is, what is the difference in fuel pressure or is it just a different size injector?...if same fuel pressure then my injector comes out to be 21.04888#
anyway, I never took a reading of my stock fp, just looked at Haynes and the Hahn manual... 40-57 and 55 psi respectively...I already know Haynes isn't reliable for oil pressure so wouldn't be surprised if its way off for fuel pressure either...
anybody take readings stock or have a GM manual that they'd like to share info??...
Matt K wrote:but in Shifted's faq his constant for a 2.4 with 24# injectors is 0.20250...question is, what is the difference in fuel pressure or is it just a different size injector?...if same fuel pressure then my injector comes out to be 21.04888#
oops...or is it 27.36486# ?
I remember Shifted or someone saying that the injector constant is more than just flow rate, its also configured for engine displacement and maybe a few other things, so it cannot be translated from one engine to another (LD9 to L61)
Good luck, this looks to be a very informative post!
Matt K wrote:ok so if I use Shifted's ratio technique in the faq's on hpt site with my injector constant of 0.17760 and assuming the eco injectors are 24# then I should get 0.13320 as my new injector constant...
but in Shifted's faq his constant for a 2.4 with 24# injectors is 0.20250...question is, what is the difference in fuel pressure or is it just a different size injector?...if same fuel pressure then my injector comes out to be 21.04888#
anyway, I never took a reading of my stock fp, just looked at Haynes and the Hahn manual... 40-57 and 55 psi respectively...I already know Haynes isn't reliable for oil pressure so wouldn't be surprised if its way off for fuel pressure either...
anybody take readings stock or have a GM manual that they'd like to share info??...
use whatever was in your injector constant box from factory.....
I have a couple Ecotec stock file and all 3 of them have a stock constant of .17800. So using that I figured your constant to be .1335 for your 32 lb injectors. From what I have Ecotec stock injectors are 24 lb (same size as LD9 injectors).
So I have not seena Hahn kit in person. Does it come with a AFPR to adjust fuel pressure? Have you changed fuel pressure from stock? If you have not then the constant I just did will be fine, if you have adjusted fuel pressure from stock then there is a different way to figure that, and I do not know it (never had to do that yet).
FU Tuning
Hey Matt, I checked GM Service Info and they only give you, key on engine off fuel pressure (50-60psi) most of the techs say (45-50psi) is a good average for running pressure.
Give me a call, I'd like to see how HP Tuners works.
John's .1335 is a great place to start. See how it idles. It will be a trial and error from now on. If I had to guess you will end up going with a bigger number than that. Some where around .1425.
Keep in mind that it will never be perfect. Just get that idle as close to 14.7 as you can. Then when you turn the factory O2 sensors back on you will be right at 14.7.
Also only change one aspect of the tune at a time. You will see that it is much easier to go learn the program that way and how your changes affect the way the car runs.
2004 Cavalier coupe, 5 speed, White
GO
Hahn Stage 2, Eagle rods, Wiseco 8.9, SS Valves, Dual valve springs, valve job, Ti seats and retainers
spec stage 3, Fidanza 7.5lb flywheel, Short Shifter
Slotted and dimpled rotors, EBC green stuff
SHOW
VIS EVO CF hood, KOBE KAM 5 17", Nexxen N3000, Ebay Black tails and filler, 5% tint
Gold line springs, Tokiko D-spec struts
ELECTRONICS
Kenwood in-dash DVD and Navigation, single Kicker CompVR
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2974835
oldskool wrote:I remember Shifted or someone saying that the injector constant is more than just flow rate, its also configured for engine displacement and maybe a few other things, so it cannot be translated from one engine to another (LD9 to L61)
oh yeah, I forgot that bit of info...was a little delirious at 4 am...that would calculate to the same size then...
K. Vega..Mr. M62 L61 himself. wrote:use whatever was in your injector constant box from factory.....
I plan on it, I was more trying to confirm injector size so I could calculate my new constant...or are you suggesting I not alter my constant and just use the FMU to adjust AFR?
John Higgins wrote:I have a couple Ecotec stock file and all 3 of them have a stock constant of .17800. So using that I figured your constant to be .1335 for your 32 lb injectors. From what I have Ecotec stock injectors are 24 lb (same size as LD9 injectors).
So I have not seena Hahn kit in person. Does it come with a AFPR to adjust fuel pressure? Have you changed fuel pressure from stock? If you have not then the constant I just did will be fine, if you have adjusted fuel pressure from stock then there is a different way to figure that, and I do not know it (never had to do that yet).
that is close to my constant (4/10,000th's) and the new constant also corresponds...I am pretty sure they are 24# now thanks for the confirmation...
the Hahn kit comes with a BEGi FMU that doesn't utilize the check valve hose...on the stage II with 32# accels the base fuel pressure is adjusted to 35 psi using the on set screw (allen screw/lock nut) and the boost fuel pressure is adjusted to 85-90 psi with the needle valve...I never knew exactly what my fp was stock but I want to put the base fp back to stock then adjust the constant
Darryn DiSanto wrote:John's .1335 is a great place to start. See how it idles. It will be a trial and error from now on. If I had to guess you will end up going with a bigger number than that. Some where around .1425.
Keep in mind that it will never be perfect. Just get that idle as close to 14.7 as you can. Then when you turn the factory O2 sensors back on you will be right at 14.7.
Also only change one aspect of the tune at a time. You will see that it is much easier to go learn the program that way and how your changes affect the way the car runs.
I agree about the trial and error...I think I may just use the new constant and just play with the base fp - would be easier than rewriting several times, I can just turn a screw...unless I'm missing something
Yeah, I want to get the fuel pressure and injectors sorted out first before I attempt messing with the VE histograms...
thanks everyone so far, much appreciated!
no, you want to alter your injector constant if you want to even be able to start and have the car run for you to be able to adjust the fmu lol.
K. Vega..Mr. M62 L61 himself. wrote:no, you want to alter your injector constant if you want to even be able to start and have the car run for you to be able to adjust the fmu lol.
car runs fine (though a little rich) now with stock inj constant and 35 psi fuel pressure...when I plug in the new constant I need to increase the fuel pressure to stock - just trying to get a feel for what "stock" is...
I am going to use the new constant, what I meant was I'm not going to tinker with the calculated one and have to rewrite multiple times - I was just going to adjust the "stock" base fp (with new constant) on the FMU to get the proper (idle) afr - I am assuming I have to do this with closed loop disabled though, correct??
slvr05cav wrote:Hey Matt, I checked GM Service Info and they only give you, key on engine off fuel pressure (50-60psi) most of the techs say (45-50psi) is a good average for running pressure.
Give me a call, I'd like to see how HP Tuners works.
I'll try giving you a call...I am working all weekend though
Just a heads up to everyone... anything over 83 psi of fuel pressure may cause injector problems.... AKA they wont want to shut. I read on an injector website at one time that the mechanical strength of an injector is 83 psi of fuel pressure. I may be wrong but just be careful!!
Wrench Monkey wrote:Just a heads up to everyone... anything over 83 psi of fuel pressure may cause injector problems.... AKA they wont want to shut. I read on an injector website at one time that the mechanical strength of an injector is 83 psi of fuel pressure. I may be wrong but just be careful!!
Ive read this is the case with most injectors but the Accels are capable of doing it and that's why Hahn provide them with the kit.
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
BlackEco wrote:Wrench Monkey wrote:Just a heads up to everyone... anything over 83 psi of fuel pressure may cause injector problems.... AKA they wont want to shut. I read on an injector website at one time that the mechanical strength of an injector is 83 psi of fuel pressure. I may be wrong but just be careful!!
Ive read this is the case with most injectors but the Accels are capable of doing it and that's why Hahn provide them with the kit.
Understandable, but for the poster since he has HPT there is no need to run them at that kind of pressure.
FU Tuning
ok, so I changed the constant and upped the fp to 45 but backed it down to 40 because it was still idling rich... I'm still trying to figure this all out but I'm sure I'm missing something here...
Ideally, if one has the proper base fp set and injector constant, what would the afr be at idle and what would my logs look like while driving?
What I did was turn off closed loop and take a little drive (40 psi fp)...my afr was still running rich between upper 12's and lower 14's, but mostly in the 13's, also I noticed that it was commanding a 14.0 afr the whole time. It was my understanding that our cars commanded a 14.7:1 ratio.
I've read all the faq's and stuff on HPT's site about setting up the scanner and such but I'm sure I missed stuff and didn't absorb it all, I don't have any histograms configured, not sure if that matters at this point and don't fully understand them, but could use some direction - I was just basically looking at the playback
My thought process is that I need to get the correct injector constant and the correct base fp working to where the car is running the way its meant to, and then I can worry about tuning VE and spark...if I'm way off base here, someone please correct me...basically I'm still a little stuck about the best way to go about tuning this thing with the FMU...
any thoughts?
you are on the right path, basically the fmu is there to secure your car in boost, and hpt is to pull the extra excess fueling everywhere else where it isn't necessary.
Everyone runs different afrs but ideally the closer you are to 12 the most power but dangerous if you aren't careful.
Personally,
I run at idle 14.7:1 -15.5:1 0% tps
cruise 14.5:1 - 15.2:1 between 7% and 17% tps
Partial throttle (no boost) 13.5:1 - 14.0:1 50% tps
Past partial throttle 75% tps (few psi) 11.7:1- 12.0:1
WOT 11.5:1 - 11.9:1 100% tps ( 8 psi)
this is my s/c set up. Turbo set ups are way harder on a 1bar but you have your fmu to aid you along your tuning process.
Should I be lowering my fuel pressure even more then, or adjusting the injector constant to mimic a larger injector? What have others with the Hahn kit done? - just ditch the fmu?
...this just doesn't make sense to me unless the Accel injectors I have are rated at a lower psi or something. I couldn't find any info on their website...
Again, I'm not touching VE yet, I should be able to get the injectors dialed in with just what I'm doing correct?
I found the info, they are rated at 43.5 psi like most other injectors...I'm now at 40 psi and am really rich at idle, I am now 12.x at idle after driving...
I also have a p0130 code now - o2 sensor...does this code come up when closed loop is disabled? ( I disabled it by changing the ECT startup table) or is this a coincidence and maybe why I am having this confusion...also my afr won't drop when in boost, it actually climbs to 14's (though I didn't hold it too long) and I turned the needle valve in on my FMU (more fuel)!!
FYI
I tested Johns suggested John's .1335 constant w/ Idle FP at 55psi w/ Accell 32lbrs. Idles right at 14.7 in open loop.
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
