Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say - Other Cars Forum

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Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 6:49 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/08/toyota.recalls/index.html

Quote:

College Park, Maryland (CNN) -- In his hectic, noisy laboratory at the University of Maryland, Michael Pecht is wary when it comes to assessing whether Toyota's suggested repair of sticky gas pedals will have any real impact.

"They are in a bit of a quandary," said Pecht, a professor at Maryland's Clark School of Engineering. "If they announce that electronics is a problem, they are probably going to be in a lot of trouble, because nobody's going to drive the car. So at this stage, they don't want to announce there is any electronic problem."

But according to Pecht, who is an expert in failure analysis and has written a book on sudden acceleration in automobiles, complicated electronics -- not a mechanical issue with the gas pedal -- lie at the heart of Toyota's problems. And three other independent safety analysts contacted by CNN also conclude that neither floor mats nor stuck gas pedals are an overwhelming issue.

"From what people have told me about their sudden acceleration incidents, most of them have have got nothing to do with the sticking pedal at all," said Antony Anderson, an electronics consultant in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England.

Anderson said electronic throttle controls, which largely have replaced mechanical accelerators, can malfunction in ways he compared to an occasionally disobedient child.

"We've all had that type of experience, and I'm afraid that is the sort of experience that can happen with any piece of electronics, with an electronic throttle," he said.


And Sean Kane, who runs a company called Safety Research Strategies in Rehoboth, Massachusetts, said, "Toyota's explanations do not account for the share of unintended acceleration complaints that we have examined."

Toyota officials dispute any assertion that the complicated array of electronics in its cars has an impact on the acceleration issues that have dominated headlines in the past weeks.

"After many years of exhaustive testing by us and by other organizations, we have found no evidence of an electronic problem in our electronic throttle control systems that could have led to unwanted acceleration," said John Hanson, Toyota's spokesman on quality-control issues.

But experts like Anderson say the tests conducted by Toyota are not adequate.

"Those tests do not reproduce what actually happens in everyday life," Anderson said. "They are testing for certain conditions, for certain standards, but they test, for example, signals one at a time. They don't do a whole lot of signals altogether. Whereas in a car, you've got a great cacophony of electromagnetic interference going on all the time, and you really can't rely on testing of a single frequency at one time."

As for the U.S. government's testing of Toyota's problems, the man in charge of the Center For Auto Safety, Clarence Ditlow, said that a 2007 test on a Lexus -- a Toyota brand -- by the National Highway Safety and Traffic Administration to find possible electronic interference was amateurish.

"They didn't do any real testing," he said. "For all I know, they just took a garage door opener, pointed it at the engine compartment and snapped it, and that's electronic interference to see whether or not anything happened. They closed the hood, and off they went. No problem."





Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:08 AM
...InBeforeBillHahnTypesSomethingNegativeAboutToyotaAndHowAmericanCarsAreFarSuperiorBlahBlahBlahBlah



Not unintentionally accelerating since 2009!!!!

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:29 AM
Add Prius to the list lol

http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/02/09/japan.prius.recall/index.html?hpt=T2











~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
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Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:36 AM
hahahaha

i knew the floor mats were a joke. come on, they even on anchors that HOLD them in place.

at least the pedal fix was believable... but yep, i could also believe the car's wiring itself could go bad.



Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 9:49 AM
It's just speculation at this point. Even if Toyota does fix this, their sterling reputation is shot, that's a problem they not be able to solve for a very long time. I'm extremely interested in how they plan to sell vehicles at a premium now after this mess. Honestly why would someone pay $3000 more for a Camry when they could get a Mazda 6/Fusion or Malibu for less and don't have any quality and safety issues. I think this will be a 1-2 punch first people will avoid buying the Toyotas for fear of the quality being sub-par. The second punch will be people will refuse to pay a premium for perceived quality that isn't there anymore.

Toyota's next problem will be they can't seem to sell cars...at least not as many units as they did which will hurt their bottom line. People will not pay for the Toyota name now that, that name now lacks the quality it once had. Something tells me Toyota will be arrogant enough to think people will and will push on like nothings wrong never realizing why their customers are going elsewhere to buy cars.






2007 Corvette Z51 | Suzuki Swift GTi SCCA racer | 2008 Edge
Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:45 AM
It's a colossal mess. There are problems in the software and controllers too, I am sure, if only because of the oddball ways our Highlander acts. I should have sold the thing as soon as the title passed into my name via inheritance, but no...even I figured it could not be so bad of a vehicle, based on all the fawning praise heaped on Toyota for years.

I am a dumbass. Now, not only will it be hard to sell, it's almost certainly lost thousands of dollars in value.

Evol, you are correct, except I would like to add something...Toyota's woes won't just hurt its bottom line, they will destroy it. They were struggling to turn a profit before this mess, and now they are bleeding billions of dollars in lost sales and recall expenses. Their stock value has lost tens of billions on the NIkkei, and they may be headed for bankruptcy. This is an amazing 21st century drama, and I am done beating on them for now...I've made my point, and I am now just sad to see how bad it's all become, for it will ultimately affect much more than just Toyota now.

If there's any lesson to learn from all this, it's that gigantic automotive corporations may just not be a good business model. With so much exposure to problems, the fall can be disatrous.



Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:57 AM
Of course it didn't help that they denied and hid the problem for years too. If something this big is happening you deny it for as long as it takes to fix it. To me it seems like they thought if they just denied the problem even exists it would just go away.






2007 Corvette Z51 | Suzuki Swift GTi SCCA racer | 2008 Edge
Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 11:00 AM
Yep. They simply thought they could get a grip on it before it broke big. It was a big gamble, and they lost big as a result.



Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:05 PM
The first time I heard about drive-by-wire, I swore I'd never buy a car with it. People aren't laughing as much now-a-days.
I think you'd have to be a complete idiot to buy one with electric steering as well...
Still waiting for brake-by-wire lol.




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:47 PM
Agreed.
"By-wire" anything on a car is the dumbest thing of all time. By-wire on fighter jets are fine because they are maintained, monitored, and repaired constantly by dedicated crews. A pre flight crew does a pre-flight check before a jet fighter takes off. When it lands a crew inspects it and goes over it with a fine tooth comb. On a car you'd be lucky if people get their oil changed ever, so equipment like By-wire that could go wrong in the blink of an eye is and always be a terrible idea.






2007 Corvette Z51 | Suzuki Swift GTi SCCA racer | 2008 Edge
Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:56 PM
Corvette has had DBW for years now and hasn't had any problems with it.

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 4:19 PM
Truth. So have many other GM, Ford and Chrysler products.



Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 4:43 PM
OHV notec wrote:
Still waiting for brake-by-wire lol.


Look up Sensotronic Brake Control or (SBC) from yours truly Mercedes-Benz.
When I used to work for them, it it was failure after failure of brakes not working. And when they do fail, only the rear brakes works. So yhea, anticipate another 200 feet to stop from 35mph.
Oh and being that these are high priced vehicles here in the US, you will never see media coverage of the massive recall on these POS. And when no coverage is involved, you get morons thinking that German cars are "reliable."
Also MB wised up with leaving the system. The only one left in the line-up with the cheese brakes are the SLs.... Hell, even the SL65 Black series abandoned it and placed a conventional brake system. Yhea, you really don't want brake failure in a near 200mph, 712ft-lbs sled machine.

Heh, leave it up to the Germans to reinvent the wheel.



>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 5:19 PM
^^^ I was just going to mention that system. First time I read about it I thought it was an incredibly stupid idea.



Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:22 PM
What does one gain by using drive-by wire? Whether by wire on cable you push the pedal and the car goes. Personally Id like the simpler method.



Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:38 PM
DBW allows for more control over the throttle. Not operator control but computer control. Its used for cruise, traction, drivetrain abuse reduction, emissions, ect. Personally I would prefer the simpler and more reliable cable method. At least some Saabs with the T7 (i think) control system have a cable backup in case something with teh TAC motor goes wrong.

Sorry, I cant seem to spell "the" today.



Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:42 PM
TheSundownFire (JBO Chat) wrote:What does one gain by using drive-by wire? Whether by wire on cable you push the pedal and the car goes. Personally Id like the simpler method.

It's also a cost-saving method. Eliminates a lot of hardware. Replaces it with software. However, I bet Toyota's inability to pull it off well will cost them much more than they've saved, when all is said and done.



Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Tuesday, February 09, 2010 10:48 PM
By the way, my trailer has "brake by wire". Works great too! Perhaps MB could take a lesson from Featherlite



Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

Re: Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say
Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:04 AM
lol ^^^^ Good one.



RE: More problems for Toyota
Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:08 PM
Their engineers are @!#$ up left and right.
Another Toyota Recall: Now It's The Camry – And Maybe the Corolla Too

The government and Toyota supposedly knew about speeding Toyotas since 2007
This is like watching a boxer get his ass beatdown.







RE: More problems for Toyota
Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:29 PM
I hate to gloat...

Nah, actually I love to gloat...about THIS.

I predicted the fall would be hard. They are in the deepest doo-doo a company could ever find itself in. Two words describe it best...

EPIC FAIL.






Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com


RE: More problems for Toyota
Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:00 PM
Apparently Toyota pedals just made #1 in worst recalls of all time, as ranked by Time. Yes, above the killer baby cribs and lead-lined toys.




fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
RE: More problems for Toyota
Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:08 PM
I still believe it's just the tip of the iceberg. There's something really screwy in the control hordware or software too. The cars just act inconsistently odd in this respect.

They've apparently already been trying to address it in the "secret recalls" they've been doing for some time, when they download new sofware programming as the car is at the dealer for other things.



Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

RE: More problems for Toyota
Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:45 PM
Defiant wrote:I still believe it's just the tip of the iceberg. There's something really screwy in the control hordware or software too. The cars just act inconsistently odd in this respect.

They've apparently already been trying to address it in the "secret recalls" they've been doing for some time, when they download new sofware programming as the car is at the dealer for other things.


Seriously Bill, "secret recalls"?!?!?! You have got to be kidding. And who pays the techs for thier time? Are you going to continue to spew this sh!t for much longer. Is business slow for you too? Do you have nothing better to do than make up sh!t. Come on, of all people the Guru of Turbos must have something better to do....I know out there somewhere, someone needs a bi turbo Hayabusa with a ejector seat. So for the sake of the boards go build it....At least then you wont be spewing mis-information!!!!

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1295/relatively-few-complain-about-toyota/

You can read there that Toyota isn't any worse that GM or Ford....





Not unintentionally accelerating since 2009!!!!

RE: More problems for Toyota
Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:12 PM
KandyMan...Das Deutsche. wrote:
Defiant wrote:I still believe it's just the tip of the iceberg. There's something really screwy in the control hordware or software too. The cars just act inconsistently odd in this respect.

They've apparently already been trying to address it in the "secret recalls" they've been doing for some time, when they download new sofware programming as the car is at the dealer for other things.


Seriously Bill, "secret recalls"?!?!?! You have got to be kidding. And who pays the techs for thier time? Are you going to continue to spew this sh!t for much longer. Is business slow for you too? ...Do you have nothing better to do than make up sh!t.


Seriously.

I will give you one chance to retract your freak-out and accusation of fabrication of this story.
You have four hours from now to find this post before I make you look like a panicky, blithering idiot.
Clock starts....NOW.









Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:20 PM

Bill Hahn Jr.
Hahn RaceCraft

World's Quickest and Fastest Street J-Bodies
Turbocharging GM FWD's since 1988
www.turbosystem.com

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