I'm debating between picking up another car..or adding some go fast stuff to my '96 Miata. I really like the way the car is now, and I really don't want to comprimise the fun I'm having with the car. I do wish it had more get up and go, and I do enjoy working on it....but I also enjoy the 25+mpg...and the reliability...If I bought another car I'd probably get a Prelude or a Civic hatchback and go from there....but it'd be my 4th car...and that's not very realistic.
So, have you ever found that adding more go power has hurt the love you share with your car?
More power generally means less reliability=less fun!
I think a miata would be a fun project car. If you like tinkering, put ta turbo on that thing and go tear it up. Just remember that the more you beat on it, the more it's gonna frustrate you.
As far as your choices for an additional car. Ew.
I have learned that cars can be far more fun if you limit traction. A well designed and predictable suspension with hard/skinny tires can be a great deal of fun. Driving at the limit of traction is a blast. I am out sliding around in every snow storm that hits my area.
Why not do the whole-9 on the bolt ons to the miata?
In my experience, going with a turbo, or supercharger is a great deal of fun. However its in no way comparable to the reliability of "bolt-on power". Yes some may say "Ive had a turbo for x thousand miles and no problems" and that is the case with many cars, but less n/a cars have problems than boosted ones. (im strictly talking about cars n/a from the factory)
And if youre looking for just "some" more get up and go, I say bolt-ons are the best. But I dont know much about what you can do to a Miata. -- im sure that for a price if another car you can do quite a bit.
With all the stuff I have done to my cav, its got a little better mpg than it did stock, unless i get on it all the time. -- and nothing has broken.
Mazda did a pretty good job for performance on the Miata first off...I was hoping to do the same, because I figured I'd be happy with about 15 or so more hp..and gains like that can be had with upping the timing, intake, headerback exhaust on most cars.....but, the Miata was engineered really well..People have dynoed decreases in power by going to aftermarket intakes.....The stock exhaust manifold is almost an equal length header..It's impressive and frustrating all at the same time. Pretty much the consensus from the Miata community is that going boosted is the cheapest way to get HP. That or an engine swap..and I would feel uncomfortable doing that to my DD.
My thoughts: You're going to get a LOT more bang for the buck (as far as overall fun factor goes) by working on the suspension first.
Suspension, then HP, then Looks. This isn't my formula, but it's the easiest way to enjoy your car and keep costs down.
If you think about it, if you dump a ton of money into JUST engine/drive train mods, you're going to get a great fast little gremlin that won't hook up properly and/or will break loose in the corners, however, if you have nice sticky tires and a good suspension setup that the money for outrageous HP mods would have entailled you'll have a far more enjoyable car because it'll corner like a slot car and pick up well enough when the suspension is loaded correctly. On top of that, if you occasionally over drive the suspension with the stock set up, you'll do it ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME with more HP.
If you want to go with another FWD car, you won't get an argument from me, but I will personally slap you on the back of the head for buying another car when you could make your Miata a part-time track slut.
I don't think it's the added power itself that makes the car less fun, but the fact that the extra added zoom causes the car to be a gas guzzler with all the reliability of a Russian bus schedule. Tinkering with a car as a passtime is fun, tinkering with a car on the side of the road because it's broken down twice during your ride is not.
IMO one of the pleasures of owning a car like the Miata is being able to take long drives/trips with it and having it be no more expensive or troublesome to drive than a Corolla. You could go from NYC to MIami using backroads the whole way and the car would do it like a champ and even jump through a couple of hoops in the process.
The car I want to buy though? (1987-93 Mustang convertible) It would never do that in a million years. It'd either break down (Some minor and annoying electrical problem almost certainly) or cost me the price of the car in gas. I've always wanted one so it's a price I'm ready to pay, but that Miata is a car I seriously admire. I wouldn't sell it.
As for a Turbo, I don't see many mechanical problems if you install a tiny turbo. IHI makes some called the RHB31 that are the size of your fist. The small Turbo will spool up quickly and only give out like 5-6psi. Just enough to make 30hp and not affect mileage or engine life.
Yeah, you gotta love GAM's advice. My only hangup about doing stuff outside of the engine bay is that I won't really see any of it :*( whereas I would sure as hell notice 30-40 more hp. I do normal driving..20 miles total each day, with heavy/steady traffic..and the Miata is perfect for getting in and around slow drivers.
To my knowledge there are no AutoX events in my area. There are some doctors that race their "pretty" cars at an abandoned airport about 30 minutes from here. I've been invited but have yet to go.
I know exactly what you mean Knox. I'm just more of a 4 cylinder guy..I do like the idea of getting a car I can really beat the hell out of...built up to run low 1320's etc...but I hate the idea of buying yet another car..I'll be spreading out cash on too many vehicles then, and that's just not smart. Selling the Miata isn't an option for me..I really love that little car. And turning it into a monster, I'm afraid, will take away some of the fun of the car.
A small turbo like you're talking about..or a T25 variant would probably be the best comprimise. Go with an FMU and a small intercooler and it'd probably be right where I want it...but the only thing is I want a REALLY fast car. I've never owned one, but have always wanted. So I'm not sure if this will just be a bandaid for what I really want..
Hellion179 wrote:Yeah, you gotta love GAM's advice. My only hangup about doing stuff outside of the engine bay is that I won't really see any of it :*( whereas I would sure as hell notice 30-40 more hp. I do normal driving..20 miles total each day, with heavy/steady traffic..and the Miata is perfect for getting in and around slow drivers.
To my knowledge there are no AutoX events in my area. There are some doctors that race their "pretty" cars at an abandoned airport about 30 minutes from here. I've been invited but have yet to go.
Trust teh GAM: You get a good set of front and rear roll-bars, you'll know the difference. Engine compartments are great for eye candy, but keeping the car planted properly with F/R ARB's and sticky tires means you're going to communicate power to the ground more meaningfully.
Dumping an extra 40-50 hp will be fun no question, but you're going to notice the increased handling (I'm not even talking about Auto X) even on the highway with proper ARBs, good W/Y rated tires and a performance alignment. That's going to cost less than 40 HP I'll pretty much guarentee, and you'll learn what it is that your can do. Most people that are more interested in making their cars go fast end up doing it only in a straight line, and while that was great in the 60's-80's, in about 1995, people started realizing that straight line performance is only half of the equation. If you have any kind of foot hills or mountains in your area, you'll learn to LOVE your suspension.
IMPOSSIBLE!!! There can never be too much power
GAMmer, I don't have any fun roads where I live...the most exciting thing is exiting the expressway and doing a U turn under it....
I think I'll follow your advice anyhow. I've never worked on a vehicles suspension..so it'll be a learning experience. Also, it'll help in the ways already mentioned. Any recommendations on good reads for this subject? One thing I really need to consider is the condition of the roads where I live.
Well,
I recently just got a MazdaSpeed6, much faster, much better handling car. It's awesome.
However, today when I went through the twisting turns on my way home, it almost was boring. I took the turn 15mph faster, and the car didn't even blink. No lurching to the side,
no tire squeal. Coming out of the turn, I barely got on it and I was speeding.
Theres no way I'm going back, I'll find new ways to push the car that Sunfire was incapable of. However, sometimes even a crappy car, with bad handling and no power can be really fun. (not that your car is, just saying)
Emor8t wrote:Well,
I recently just got a MazdaSpeed6, much faster, much better handling car. It's awesome.
However, today when I went through the twisting turns on my way home, it almost was boring. I took the turn 15mph faster, and the car didn't even blink. No lurching to the side,
no tire squeal. Coming out of the turn, I barely got on it and I was speeding.
Theres no way I'm going back, I'll find new ways to push the car that Sunfire was incapable of. However, sometimes even a crappy car, with bad handling and no power can be really fun. (not that your car is, just saying)
I agree 100 percent.
Increasing the capabilities of a car does not always make for a more enjoyable drive. Some of the biggext POS's I have owed were the most fun of all.
I do appreciate an overpowered chasis. I find the on the edge behaviour to be exilirating. Any struggle for traction is what driving is all about.
The sheer rush of speed is certainly exciting, but you grow acustomed to it and need to push harder and faster to get a buzz from the drive. Getting that rush on the streets in a new 911t will put you in jail.
To me, the 30's grand prix cars with 700hp and what amounts to bicycle tires was the epitome of a real drivers car. Stability control, traction assist, short lasting sticky tires and downforce are for the video game wanabe drivers. Like F1 now, all you need is a young lad with no fear to press the pedals and the best technology money can buy. I have all the respect for the technology, but the ego boosts really belong to the engineers.
power only takes you so far in regards to fun, my last car was an LS1 Trans Am and while it was really fast , that sorta wore thin after about 6 months... to be honest my favorite car was my bmw e36 328i. that car handled great and didn't have so much power that it couldn't get out of its own way in the twisties like the trans am , to me its about the overall driving experience. my 08 scion tC is slowly growing into my favorite but at first i really didn't like the way it handled. some trd struts and springs took care of that problem and now the car handles great and i have fun driving it even though it has about 150hp less then the trans am... im soon gonna be adding front and rear sway bars to enhance the fun factor. the scion tc takes extremely well to suspension mods
point being you could be bored with a 350 hp car that extremely fast in a straight line but handles only alright or you can have a blast in a 115hp car that slow off the line but handles amazing
when i was younger i thought that most the fun came from having lots of power but i have realized over time that this isn't true in the least.
the fun is in how the car feels and drives and not so much in the amount of Hp it has
This was more or less my point:
- An overpowered chassis is fun but.. it depends on your definition of fun.
- A Miata will take to power mods nicely, but it will take to suspension mods much more readily: you want to play up a car's strengths first.
- You can make a Miata a lot more fun putting a good set of tires on... after that, you move along to front ARB's and springs and shocks, this can be done relatively cheaply and the only part you need to worry about taking to a pro is the alignment (you CAN do it yourself, but it's likely a lot easier going to an alignment shop), whereas a turbo kit or supercharger is going to run at LEAST 3500, and a good amount of work and you're likely to get used to the power.
BTW Craig: If that was all that was required to make the car go fast, EVERYONE would be an F1 driver, and Michael Schumacher would have had a ton more competition in the last 10 years. True, the cars are engineering terrors, but, it still requires a human to strap the car on and finesse it to it's limits race in and out.
@Craig,
Yeah, there'd be no way I'd get into a car with bicycle tires and attempt to drive it at any rate of speed. I'm not sure if those guys were dumb or insane, probably both.
But going on what GAM said, I think they have a decent bit of talent., I mean even if it handled on rails, they are going 180+ through turns, takes some skill to handle the speed.
Plus F1 is a rolling traffic jame, they often do it <5 inches away from another car.
F1 is no more a race than it is a high speed parade. Passing is a rarity.
I believe Shumacker won because he drove for the team that spent the most cash at the time.
I would almost compare an F1 race to a WWF match.
The FIA makes the most money when Ferarri wins. Just look at the red section in any race. A German driver in the red is certainly a marketable combo. Nationality and demographic have more to do with driver choices than ultimate skill. That being said, a certain level of skill and fearlessness is needed.
I stopped watching F1 in the 80's after the Sena/Prost battles. Since then, it's been a big snooze.
^ and that is why Nascar is definitely more exciting than F1
Sorry, just had to say that.
I will agree though, an overpowered chassis is probably the most fun that you can have. I went from two sportbikes with tons of lean angle, world-class suspension and relatively small engines to a big ass cruiser with a raked out front-end, not much clearance between the ground and the exhaust pipes and a 115 horsepower monster engine strapped into it, and it's so much more fun than I could ever have on a sportbike.
Comparing NASCAR to F1 is like comparing horse piss to Guinness. Let me know when it's compulsory for NASCAR to make left and right turns every race. F1 is great fun to see up front and personal.
As for other kinds of racing, SCCA, NASA... there's lots of them: hell, I've started to like watching Gokarting
Hellion179 wrote:but the only thing is I want a REALLY fast car. I've never owned one, but have always wanted. So I'm not sure if this will just be a bandaid for what I really want..
Just get another car, but get one with some potential on the cheap (NOT a Prelude or Civic). You can pick up an early 90's AWD DSM that's already running 11's for $5-6k, or buy a stocker for $1-2k and put $1k into turbo system/tuning to get the same results. It takes more money to make them handle worth a damn than to go incredibly fast in a straight line.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
OHV notec wrote:Hellion179 wrote:but the only thing is I want a REALLY fast car. I've never owned one, but have always wanted. So I'm not sure if this will just be a bandaid for what I really want..
Just get another car, but get one with some potential on the cheap (NOT a Prelude or Civic). You can pick up an early 90's AWD DSM that's already running 11's for $5-6k, or buy a stocker for $1-2k and put $1k into turbo system/tuning to get the same results. It takes more money to make them handle worth a damn than to go incredibly fast in a straight line.
i think you may have forgot about the rest of the drivetrain in your dsm equation...
i'd listen to gam... miatas with suspension mods are amazing!!! a buddy of mine took me for a ride in his around an autox track and i climbed out with the biggest grin on my face...
OHV notec wrote:Hellion179 wrote:but the only thing is I want a REALLY fast car. I've never owned one, but have always wanted. So I'm not sure if this will just be a bandaid for what I really want..
Just get another car, but get one with some potential on the cheap (NOT a Prelude or Civic). You can pick up an early 90's AWD DSM that's already running 11's for $5-6k, or buy a stocker for $1-2k and put $1k into turbo system/tuning to get the same results. It takes more money to make them handle worth a damn than to go incredibly fast in a straight line.
I keep mislaying the link I had to the "See Crank Walk" picture.
DSM's are great, however, You're talking about:
1- Laying out a LOT more cash than it would cost to setup a Miata with a kick ass suspension (figure no more than $4000 for a full
Ohlins suspension, Jackson/Eibach Solid ARB's and beefed up end links, Chassis and End Braces, and front STB, plus sticky tires.... You're talking over $4000 for a FWD car, and $5000 for AWD... and you're back at square 1, and then dump about $2000 into the car. Money grows on trees down south, eh?)
2- One more car means less money to mod other cars or do other productive things.
3- The FWD/AWD DSM's are nice, but they're basically only good for going straight and maybe time attack. The Miata is good for those as well as drifting, and as a bonus: it's a chick magnet. I'm sorry, but attracting women takes precedence over owning a little 1/4 mile monster that has troubles hanging a turn.
Look, going fast in a quarter is fun as hell, for about 15 seconds... then you spend how long in a staging area, and then you set up again and get another 10-15 seconds.. That may sound fun, but I'll take a little more prolonged joy, 5-10 laps around the track is at least 10 minutes (depending on the size). Plus, cars aren't on rails: you have a steering wheel for a reason.
strat81 wrote:i think you may have forgot about the rest of the drivetrain in your dsm equation...
i'd listen to gam... miatas with suspension mods are amazing!!!
The rest of the drivetrain is fine, unless he's going to be powershifting it or something rediculous...easy into second, easy into third
I'd love to have a miata with a baller suspension under it, but I need a backseat. I have replaced just about everything suspension-wise on both my cars, I'm not building dragsters, but it sounds like that is what this guy is looking for.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:I keep mislaying the link I had to the "See Crank Walk" picture.
I said early 90's, meaning 6-bolt, meaning crank walk is not an issue
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:1- Laying out a LOT more cash than it would cost to setup a Miata with a kick ass suspension (figure no more than $4000 for a full Ohlins suspension, Jackson/Eibach Solid ARB's and beefed up end links, Chassis and End Braces, and front STB, plus sticky tires.... You're talking over $4000 for a FWD car, and $5000 for AWD... and you're back at square 1, and then dump about $2000 into the car. Money grows on trees down south, eh?)
2- One more car means less money to mod other cars or do other productive things.
3- The FWD/AWD DSM's are nice, but they're basically only good for going straight and maybe time attack. The Miata is good for those as well as drifting, and as a bonus: it's a chick magnet. I'm sorry, but attracting women takes precedence over owning a little 1/4 mile monster that has troubles hanging a turn.
Look, going fast in a quarter is fun as hell, for about 15 seconds... then you spend how long in a staging area, and then you set up again and get another 10-15 seconds.. That may sound fun, but I'll take a little more prolonged joy, 5-10 laps around the track is at least 10 minutes (depending on the size). Plus, cars aren't on rails: you have a steering wheel for a reason.
1: Those look like 2g prices, 1g's are a LOT less. Like I said, for the price of that suspension, he could have a streetable car running the quarter in less than 12 seconds.
2: It sounds like the OP doesn't want to modify the Miata much, but wants a very fast car, I don't see any other options.
3: You shouldn't average them like that...FWD are junk, AWD are brutal. Oh yeah, I've heard a lot of women who believe only a guy who swings the opposite direction would drive a Miata
Again, it sounds like this guy just wants to go fast, and straight. The OP mentioned poor road conditions (bad for aftermarket suspension...from experience), and a lack of twisties nearby (I can relate here as well).
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
I still stand by my previous statements. Plus, going fast in a straight line is only fun for a few seconds.
And if a woman thinks I'm gay because I drive a miata (I can't, I'm a LITTLE too tall and broad) that's a track slut, then that's fine, she doesn't know much about cars in the first place then
Either way, you're buying a car that's 15 years old with straight line potential and not a lot else. All you need in the case of the Miata to start: good tires. Realistically, that's the same for any car (really good tires will transform ANY car), but all you need to see the difference between a DSM and Miata is a Parking Lot course... I've driven both (even the AWD DSMs) and I'll take the Miata... if I could strap one on.
I'd like to see a Talon TSI AWD with a worked over suspension, it'd be interesting, they used to be competent Rally cars back in the day.
The thing that I'm trying to impress is that the extra car isn't really necessary, if you have a Miata that's pretty well stock, why not make it handle like a gokart and then add power instead of getting a new car, and having the extra headaches when you have to license and insure and maintain it? Really, if you look at the options, you'll have as much or more fun learning to throw your car around and get better yourself when driving than just dumping 40-50 hp into a new car that'll only go fast when going straight ahead. If he wants to go fast, there's a bunch of ways to do it, but if you go with suspension on a Miata, you're playing to the car's strength, and you can add a power adder later when you get good at handling the car's power as it stands.
