Just like the title says...
GM's Lordstown, Ohio plant (where the Cavalier, Sunfire, Sunbird, Cobalt, G5, Pursuit is made) has become a test bed for a company wide cost cutting effort that could save GM hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
It is called "True North;" GM is asking local UAW leaders at all plants to consider efficiency measures. GM wants the union at Lordstown, Oh. to accept nonunion janitors, work 10-hour shifts without overtime pay, and allow nonunion workers truckers to deliver and unload parts shipments and let nonunion workers replenish parts bin.
Here is the kicker and in which GM is threatening... if they do not accept GM's proposal, production of the next Cobalt, which is slated for 2009, might move to Mexico.
If the union allows it, “True North” could generate big savings. According to GM nonunion "janitors" would earn $12 per hr while a union "janitor" earns $28 per hr. According to GM, the switch alone could save GM $300million to $500 million year.
Lordstown is the test bed because it produces small cars... a product segment that has not been too profitable.
As of now the Lear workers (makes interior parts) accepted a 5-year pay freeze and eased work rule and agreed to $12 weekly benefit co-pays. Those workers also agreed more duties such as sweeping the floors without any changes in pay.
Local 1112 the union for Lear is worried that the next-gen Cobalt will be built in Mexico.
Other GM plants is doing the same too like in Kansas City, Kan., GM's cost cutting target is 54 million. Where GM wants to shift work performed by UAW to go to outside contractors and outside the country.
If Fairfax accepts new GM's proposition, they could get a shot of building a replacement vehicle when the plant stops producing the Chevy Malibu and Saturn Aura in 2011.
The problem here lays are, GM is not guaranteeing that those plants will stay open for future GM vehicles after agreeing to the concessions.
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Also some Cobalt news is that the next Cobalt will be called Delta-2. It will be one platform shared with the Opel Astra (not separate like today), common pieces and all. LNF is being tested out in the HHR as their test mule. GM has not confirmed anything yet, but one thing is for sure, do not expect it in the current Cobalt. The platform is expected to be new too. Also a hybrid is in the works for the Delta-2 Cobalt. Do you remember the 2007 Chevy Volt concept? Well, a lower priced version of that technology will be made for the 2010-2011 Cobalt. Lutz is spending big bucks on this Hybrid in which it will help GM meet new CAFE standards, which could mean RWD large/midsize car (nee Impala).
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
Wow, what an interesting little snip at the end of your post.
GM looks to be coming out swinging in 2010, accompanied with the 600+ HP CTS-V
[quote=97trd(???™)]hecho de mexico
made of mexico???
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about
the former." - Albert Einstein
interesting.
05 M6 YJ GTO 1 of 447 12.767@109.93
isnt it hecho en mexico? just like my cav. my old sunfire was built in canada, and the build quality between the 2 cars is amazing. my sunfire had less rattles at 115K miles than my cav did at 50k. 2 of my exhaust manifold nuts (the ones on the manifold not the head) were cross threaded and busted the studs when removing the manifold...
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^^^ I don't think they ever built Sunfires in Canada.....I'm pretty sure that it was only in the US and Mexico....
coulda sworn i had a canadian build sticker..oh well...too late to check car was traded in 3 years ago.
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Quote:
According to GM nonunion "janitors" would earn $12 per hr while a union "janitor" earns $28 per hr.
Thats ridiculous, it's no wonder the big 3 are bleeding money. I wouldn't spend $28/hr on a janitor unless he was cleaning nuclear waste. Hope the UAW is smart enough to agree to it unless they want to be in the unemployment line.
ive been saying this for years. Cut union jobs, they are ruining it for everyone.
<~~~~PWN3D!!
Steve from PA wrote:@!#$ unions
and your weekends?
and minimum pay?
and overtime pay?
and minimum safety standards?
Unions have too much sway, but they have more advantages than downsides. If management and unions want to make money equally, they work together, it's in their best interest... it's when one wants to rook the other... that's when the equation gets skewed.
Mr Goodwrench: Does it run on tortillas?
unions suck ass , they are just another name for the mob
the make you go out on strike if there is a issue , and they still want you to pay their fees , but how the hell you supposed to do that with no in coming pay
unions are worse than paris hilton being the president
Spike J wrote:Quote:
According to GM nonunion "janitors" would earn $12 per hr while a union "janitor" earns $28 per hr.
Thats ridiculous, it's no wonder the big 3 are bleeding money. I wouldn't spend $28/hr on a janitor unless he was cleaning nuclear waste. Hope the UAW is smart enough to agree to it unless they want to be in the unemployment line.
No crap. "Custodians" here (massive university) would be lucky to see a third of that...
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
It is the
LAMEST excuse to say that the unions are bringing down GM.
Ever stop and think for just one second that this whole issue with unions bringing GM down is popular now after their market is share shrinking?
It was never an issue in the 60's 70's 80's 90's, but now that their sales are plummeting yearly, SUDDENLY it is all the union's fault? Get f-ing real!
That is the same BS reason as the health-care is bringing GM down.
What is wrong earning a good income? Do you think under earning $25K yearly is justifiable for a family today? Think for a second again, low salary means economy will become staid. People will not buy extras, just because in order to survive, why? No money. The market slows because people will buy less, then factories will have to do a full on blitz in order not to loose the buisness.
You people need to know your history and check how workers were being treated at the turn of the 20th century, before complaining about unions.
Nobody has stopped and think that GM products are not what the market/customers want or that there is better for the money.... hence the decreasing yearly GM sales numbers? While Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc sales are steadily going up yearly?
You know it is real easily to attack the weak and the ones that have nothing to do with it, but if you really want to place the blame, blame the root of the problem: THE TOP EXECUTIVES, the bean counters. They are the ones that decide to make a cheap interior, they decide to make 5 variations of the same SUV, they are the ones that want crappy Korean products and sell them as their efficient models, they are the ones that killed off their fleet police/taxi/gov't cars and left the market solely to Ford and issues like these are plenty more.
To say the union is the main culprit is as ridiculous as to say BBQing is the main reason we have global warming.
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Um, no way in hell should a janitor be making close to 60 grand a year. Likewise for assembly line workers.
I don't care if they have been their for 2 decades. Gm gives enough tuition reimbursement for them to attended college and get a degree even if it took them 10 years to do it. For what they are paying one janitor they should be getting almost 2. So yeah, cutting labor costs in hlaf would definitely help GM.
They do the same job, day in day out, unless they are producing an extra large amount of cars, doesn't guarantee you a raise. This is the same absurd philosophy at UPS and drivers making 80 grand a year. What the hell for? I'm not saying people who do meanial labor jobs are stupid and shouldn't make good money, but how can you justify paying somebody 2x the average for the same work, and the same quality job?
My grandfather with a highschool education came to this country as a brick layer, he built houses, started his own company, started a catering business and made wise investments. Had he staid a brick layer, he would have maintained that same wage, there is no reason why people should be making $60k to wipe toilet seats and pick up trash.
I'm sorry. I don't speak gibberish. Review what you write before you post!
28 dollars a hour is more than a electrical lines man makes in so cal
there is no dam need for some crack addict janitor to make that much , maybe 20 after he has been there 15 years
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:It is the LAMEST excuse to say that the unions are bringing down GM.
Ever stop and think for just one second that this whole issue with unions bringing GM down is popular now after their market is share shrinking?
It was never an issue in the 60's 70's 80's 90's, but now that their sales are plummeting yearly, SUDDENLY it is all the union's fault? Get f-ing real!
That is the same BS reason as the health-care is bringing GM down.
What is wrong earning a good income? Do you think under earning $25K yearly is justifiable for a family today? Think for a second again, low salary means economy will become staid. People will not buy extras, just because in order to survive, why? No money. The market slows because people will buy less, then factories will have to do a full on blitz in order not to loose the buisness.
You people need to know your history and check how workers were being treated at the turn of the 20th century, before complaining about unions.
Nobody has stopped and think that GM products are not what the market/customers want or that there is better for the money.... hence the decreasing yearly GM sales numbers? While Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, etc sales are steadily going up yearly?
You know it is real easily to attack the weak and the ones that have nothing to do with it, but if you really want to place the blame, blame the root of the problem: THE TOP EXECUTIVES, the bean counters. They are the ones that decide to make a cheap interior, they decide to make 5 variations of the same SUV, they are the ones that want crappy Korean products and sell them as their efficient models, they are the ones that killed off their fleet police/taxi/gov't cars and left the market solely to Ford and issues like these are plenty more.
To say the union is the main culprit is as ridiculous as to say BBQing is the main reason we have global warming.
First off, I respect the hell out of you. However, I don't think your statement holds much water. Unions are a big reason American companies can't compete in a global market anymore. You mentioned that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai have rising sales and better products. It just so happens, those are non-union companies. They don't have to spend extra on workers salary thus they can spend it towards a better product. GM and Ford pay out the ass for workers on an assembly line to screw in a few bolts and then they get two breaks, a lunch and an average of 10 days more vacation than Toyota workers.
Now, I'm not saying that these people shouldn't earn a decent living. Unions are good in that nature. People who work dangerous jobs should get paid a little extra. However, you can't tell me assembling a car hold the same risks as a steel worker or refinery worker does yet, on average, they get paid the same. And a janitor should not get $28/hour.
The thing that gets me with your post is this "You know it is real easily to attack the weak and the ones that have nothing to do with it, but if you really want to place the blame, blame the root of the problem: THE TOP EXECUTIVES, the bean counters." unions and their board of directors are a corporation in themselves. they have lavish retirement plans, outrageous salaries, and are more more corrupt than the politicians that help them. They are just as bad as the "big bad CEO's" that working for the big three.
So I'm summary, Unions drive up productions cost but the quality of work stays low. They prevent companies from firing incompetent workers thus further diminishing quality. And, they have the companies, who aren't making money, by the balls demanding more pay, more vacation when the work is the same. They're comes a time when you actually have to earn your money and folks in the UAW are hindering that effort. They were good back in the day, but they have gotten out of hand.
Kevin Pecoraro wrote:
First off, I respect the hell out of you. However, I don't think your statement holds much water. Unions are a big reason American companies can't compete in a global market anymore. You mentioned that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai have rising sales and better products. It just so happens, those are non-union companies. They don't have to spend extra on workers salary thus they can spend it towards a better product. GM and Ford pay out the ass for workers on an assembly line to screw in a few bolts and then they get two breaks, a lunch and an average of 10 days more vacation than Toyota workers.
Unions are the reason American can't compete? Do you understand that the better products start at the engineering dept in Detroit. After the designers/engineers review it, they will look at it and say; "can we make x-product lower in price?" And you know that is normal in business/Capitalist world... maximise profit. So when the bean counters decides lets put hard plastic, instead of the costlier padded stuff, to save a buck, they will put the hard plastic. Another is putting a solid beam rear axle, while competition is running in IRS. These are decisions made by top executives, not union line workers. And get this, customers see this as they become critical to car shopping, so when the competition has these better items, customers will buy.
To think that GM or any other American manufacture that will reduce worker benefits and pay will automatically mean better product to sell is in some sort of fairy tale. Business is out there to make money and maximize profit at what ever cost. If a company makes $1000 per car and pays its worker $20 per hour and later decides to pay its worker $7 per hr and make $1100 per car, they have met their objective of maximizing profit, capitalism at its finest. But at what cost?
Quote:
Now, I'm not saying that these people shouldn't earn a decent living. Unions are good in that nature. People who work dangerous jobs should get paid a little extra. However, you can't tell me assembling a car hold the same risks as a steel worker or refinery worker does yet, on average, they get paid the same. And a janitor should not get $28/hour.
Who are you to determine what a person should make? Do you even know what the janitor is doing? Do you think exec should have helicopters and private jets and have yearly salaries in the 6 digit form? Especially since your company is in the red. Yes, $28 per hr sounds like a lot, but that is yearly gross $56K and take home would be $45-50K after taxes, insurance, fees. Just about right for ok family living considering the high inflation level, but enough money to contribute to the American economy.
Quote:
The thing that gets me with your post is this "You know it is real easily to attack the weak and the ones that have nothing to do with it, but if you really want to place the blame, blame the root of the problem: THE TOP EXECUTIVES, the bean counters." unions and their board of directors are a corporation in themselves. they have lavish retirement plans, outrageous salaries, and are more more corrupt than the politicians that help them. They are just as bad as the "big bad CEO's" that working for the big three.
No not really, looks like business propaganda. Unions are there to help the little people, the people that nobody gives a sh!t about. When there is no job security and have nobody to turn to, the union is there help you continue having a paycheck. Nothing worse then knowing the company you work for could fire you when ever they feel like it for no legit reason what so ever, trust me I know.
Quote:
So I'm summary, Unions drive up productions cost but the quality of work stays low. They prevent companies from firing incompetent workers thus further diminishing quality. And, they have the companies, who aren't making money, by the balls demanding more pay, more vacation when the work is the same. They're comes a time when you actually have to earn your money and folks in the UAW are hindering that effort. They were good back in the day, but they have gotten out of hand
Like I said before:
Ever stop and think for just one second that this whole issue with unions bringing GM down is popular now after their market is share shrinking?
It was never an issue in the 60's 70's 80's 90's, but now that their sales are plummeting yearly, SUDDENLY it is all the union's fault? Get f-ing real!
That is the same BS reason as the health-care is bringing GM down.
The only difference here is that their market share today is getting close to the teens when ten years ago they were at 30% and the Asian counterparts are gaining ground.
Read for second about this topic "Next-gen GM compact may be built in Mexico" Cheap labor and jobless people at home so the top exec can get their thick wallets thicker.
Yep, we can definitely blame the union, health care for the decline of sales & market share, hell... it is their fault for bringing the Aztek into production too.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
The union has had and currently has a bunch of people ready to retire. A huge exspense for any company to pay for.
The union is not needed unless the state you are in does not have a right to work law.
05 M6 YJ GTO 1 of 447 12.767@109.93
Mr G: I have nothing but respect for you as well, but I've got to agree with Kevin on the above. While the unions are not TOTALLY to blame (there is no one singular cause), they do hold some responsibility.
Quote:
It was never an issue in the 60's 70's 80's 90's, but now that their sales are plummeting yearly, SUDDENLY it is all the union's fault?
Well of course it was never an issue then. During the '60s and early '70s, technology was different, their competition was different, the natural environment was different, among countless other things. With the automotive competitive landscape as cluttered as it is now, certain issues that have existed all along suddenly become brought to the public's attention. That doesn't mean the problem didn't exist then, it just wasn't as important.
Quote:
Who are you to determine what a person should make?
Who is a union to determine what a person should make? No more or no less authoritative than you, I, or anyone else in this thread. In the case of providing benefits or protection from unfair treatments, I'll be as pro-union as anyone could be. However, a union is overstepping their boundaries if they are artificially inflating the value of a position beyond what the market has determined it to be. If I were to quit my job today, could I find janetorial work for $28/hr? Of course not. How about $20? $15? Probably not even there. This shows the price the market is willing to pay for custodial work. Why should a GM janitor make twice what a Toyota janitor makes simply because they belong to one certain organization?
Quote:
When there is no job security and have nobody to turn to, the union is there help you continue having a paycheck.
That's all well and good. But how long will the union be able to provide a paycheck when they price themselves out of an industry?
Quote:
After the designers/engineers review it, they will look at it and say; "can we make x-product lower in price?"
I won't deny this for a second, for any automotive company. Why do they do this? You said it yourself: profit maximization. But, assembly labor and and MRO services are just as much a part of profit as componant costs. If assembly costs were not inflated, pressure to reduce component costs may not fall so hard on engineers, providing for an increase in quality, while still maintaining a competitive market price and producing a fair return for the automaker.
Bottom line: Are axing the unions the end-all cure for GM? Of course not. But there has to be some issues resolved if quality and sales are to rebound for GM.
1989 Z24 Convertible - Dust Covered
2006 tC - Dust Covered, but driven more
ZlineDavid wrote:Who is a union to determine what a person should make? No more or no less authoritative than you, I, or anyone else in this thread. In the case of providing benefits or protection from unfair treatments, I'll be as pro-union as anyone could be. However, a union is overstepping their boundaries if they are artificially inflating the value of a position beyond what the market has determined it to be. If I were to quit my job today, could I find janetorial work for $28/hr? Of course not. How about $20? $15? Probably not even there. This shows the price the market is willing to pay for custodial work. Why should a GM janitor make twice what a Toyota janitor makes simply because they belong to one certain organization?
Could not be said better. I say improve workplace quality through government regulations so that EVERYONE gets decent treatment (not just those giving part of their paychecks to unions), and kill off needless union spending.
I also agree 100% that the men at the top are padding their pockets way too much, considering their company's position in the market. If their company is not doing well, then neither should they.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
OHV notec wrote:ZlineDavid wrote:Who is a union to determine what a person should make? No more or no less authoritative than you, I, or anyone else in this thread. In the case of providing benefits or protection from unfair treatments, I'll be as pro-union as anyone could be. However, a union is overstepping their boundaries if they are artificially inflating the value of a position beyond what the market has determined it to be. If I were to quit my job today, could I find janetorial work for $28/hr? Of course not. How about $20? $15? Probably not even there. This shows the price the market is willing to pay for custodial work. Why should a GM janitor make twice what a Toyota janitor makes simply because they belong to one certain organization?
Could not be said better. I say improve workplace quality through government regulations so that EVERYONE gets decent treatment (not just those giving part of their paychecks to unions), and kill off needless union spending.
I also agree 100% that the men at the top are padding their pockets way too much, considering their company's position in the market. If their company is not doing well, then neither should they.
agreed
hell GM can go to mexico and pick up some employees with work visas , and have the whole complex cleaned top to bottom , and that 28.00 a hour will get them atleast a half dozen people that want to make some money and clean
atleast bring them here and paying them through a work visa will put tax dollars back into our government
Problem: American auto manufacturer have declining yearly sales with loosing market share.
What I'm seeing here is fairy tale assumptions. You all think by paying low wages that GM will have enough capital to make better products and sales and market share will go up. That is wishful thinking at its finest.
Seriously every vehicle that GM sells is going to make money, if not they would not be in business whether it being $3000 per car to $20,000 per truck. The idea that GM wants is to make even more profit... again maximize profit. Here the top GM business people in 2007 is saying that unions and heath-care is ruining the company to the ground, in other words blame the low level workers. But top execs can and will stay with high wage and benefits. They FAIL to mention to the public if you sell vehicles an income will enter the corporation. And that's the problem, people are going else where for their choice of vehicles hence decrease in yearly sales/shares.
For the third time already:
It was never an issue in the 60's 70's 80's 90's, but now that their sales are plummeting yearly, SUDDENLY it is all the union's fault? Get f-ing real!
That is the same BS reason as the health-care is bringing GM down.
In those time GM sold in droves and the ONLY issue in recent times (80's) were that the company were going to build else where. In those times our beautiful gov't aka Ronald Reagan and friends passed a law in which if you manufacturers outside the states you will get tax cuts.
Being a business out to seek money, they did exactly that, made items else where. Which is why so many American factories are shut-down and abandoned all over the country today.
If you think for a second that lowering wages to the lower workers will result in better products, we are in sad shape. I guarantee you, you will NOT see the savings in the MSRP nor will you see it on the engineering standpoint either.
American car manufactures are going down hill when it comes to labor. It starts with health-care, then pay-cuts, then layoffs, then closing of factories. Pretty soon nothing will be made here and when that day comes, we are going to be f-u-c-ked as we are now going to depend on others to build for us. God forbid that GM/Ford/DCX sends our military manufactures over to India or China just to save a buck or two.
I will reduce the amount of posts on this because it is going down as quick as American car sales. But one thing I find disturbing is the fact that people complain that the janitor is making $28 per hr and it is wrong. I for one I'm happy that he is earning that. The way I see it, he is working... chances are he is not stealing (no need with a good salary), best of all he is not draining the government's social system, why? He is making good money... there fore we are not paying him for plan-8 housing or food stamps. And is in fact probably contributing to the economy, why? Because he can afford it. He is not plague to society. Which is why unions are a asset to the labor force or what is left of it.
OHV notec wrote: Could not be said better. I say improve workplace quality through government regulations so that EVERYONE gets decent treatment (not just those giving part of their paychecks to unions), and kill off needless union spending.
I also agree 100% that the men at the top are padding their pockets way too much, considering their company's position in the market. If their company is not doing well, then neither should they.
I agree on gov't regulations too. But then we interfere with Capitalism. And you know that is a big no-no if you are a politician and want to remain in power or receive a hefty check.
But in the 80's and today politicians who are suppose to protect the people, sadly has their eyes covered when it comes down to labor rules/fairness.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
