i just blew another slave cylinder. someone PLEASE tell me what is going on here....
After installing a autozone (LUK) slave cylinder and having it fail on me, dumping fluid all over. Then finding out they were out of stock and wouldnt have a replacement for a long time they told me i could wait or get a refund and find one elsewhere. Following a rediculous ordeal trying to find a clutch slave cylinder elsewhere... i finally located one at carquest, and had it ordered in for me.
Dropped the tranny, slapped the new slave in, bolted it all back togehter, bled the clutch, and as soon as all the air was out, closed the bleeder, and stepped on the pedal a few times happy to feel it felt like it should.. i stepped on it again and about half way down it felt like it caught on something... then didnt want to come all the way back up. so i pulled the pedal back up.. stepped down again... again felt a lil catch about half way down, and the pedal then went straight to the floor... much to my fear... i looked under the car... and yet ANOTHER puddle of brake fluid. THIS ONE BLEW TOO!!!
That feeling of "snagging" on something makes me wonder if there isnt something wrong, and it isnt JUST a faulty slave (two of them)
I wonder if that "catching" was the slave reaching the end of its normal travel, and then going past that poped a seal or something hyperextending the slave, thus causing it to dump all its fluid.
But then you have to ask HOW could it be hyperextending itself? you would think the pressure plate and clutch and all should stop it well before it could go "too far"...
and that then leads me to wonder if i was given incorrect information on here.... I installed a centerforce dual friction clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel from a earlier model cavalier. (96-98) which i know is a different setup than the 00+... but i was told that as long as you use them all together as a unit, it doesnt matter. you just need to keep the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch together as one unit. I was told just to keep the same slave for whatever year my car was. and this i did as well.
But all i can think of is that this most be bogus information, and that the older clutch setups are shallower than the new ones, and the throw on the older slaves is greater... and that by putting the older setup in with the newer slave, it is hyperextending itself and blowing seals.
That is all i can come up with... and it is a really unpleasant theory for me, as it means not only do i need to drop the tranny AGAIN, but i also need to get a new slave, clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel as well.
I am really about ready to give up on this car.
actually, after a lil reading on here, and talking to a few people... it seems that there have been cases of centerforce clutches that have caused blown slaves... i guess the centerforce clutchs fingers dont come up as high as stock, and this can cause the slave to over-extend, and pop a seal....
2 of my friends stopped over and they both believe that the "snagging" on something was the slave reaching the end of its normal travel, and by stepping further, it hyper extended it... and that makes sence as that is right when it started dumping fluid and losing pressure... right after it caught, and poped....
so maybe it had something to do with using a 98 style clutch assembly... maybe it was the centerforce... maybe a little bit of both...
but it looks like i am going to need to resurface my 02 flywheel, and buy a new non-centerforce clutch and pressure plate.
so if anyone has some suggestions where i can find a good clutch kit for a 400hp engine, and can get it here in a hurry... i would love to hear it.
Spec always act likes that if you call them directly they can grant you a wish or something, might be worth a try...
KFLO wrote:Spec always act likes that if you call them directly they can grant you a wish or something, might be worth a try...
Spec always acts like what?
and what kinda wish granting might i be looking for when i call them?
ok got word back from the coroner... Autopsy revealed that the death of the first slave cylinder was indeed hyperextension.
The slave has a metal ring with a rubber seal on it, that acts as the "piston" to create the motion to release the clutch... this piston is nestled between 2 cylinders. the inner cylinder extendes the full length of the slaves travel, and acts as a guide for the throwout bearing. The outter cylinder is much shorter, and only serves to seal in the fluid and seal the outter edge of the pistons travel.
well the rubber seal of the piston on the first slave had 2 sharp cuts on it very close to eachother.. not a tear, or a scuff, but a slice...
a recreation of the crime scene in our labroatory revealed that the seal could have very easily have extended beyond the limits of the outter piston wall. If the pressure of the hydraulic system was not matched by an equal resistance by the end of its intended travel, the piston could easily extend beyond the outter wall, causing an "opening" in an otherwised "closed" hydraulic system resulting in loss of pressure and fluid leakage.
Further examination revealed that once the system had lost pressure due to hyperextension of the piston and loss of piston to cylinder seal... that the resistance of the pressure plate could easily overcome the remaining hydraulic pressure, and force the piston back into its cylinder... But the design of the cylinder and piston seal did not allow for a smooth re-insertion of the seal from the outside... Forcing the seal back into the cylinder in this fashion caused the piston to deform, in a way to allow most of it back into the cylinder, but the last section of the seal to try to enter became pinched and scissored in 2 places between the metal piston and the sharp edge of the cylinder edge. these 2 cuts allowed the remaining section of the seal to fold backwards and slide back into the cylinder. but in this folded position there was a large gap in the cylinder wall seal, causing fluid to leak out, and the inablity of the system to create pressure.
upon removal of the vehicle, the slave was briefly inspected externally and the cylinder was manually compressed and extended for visible signs of failure. It was later realized that the manual compression of the slave allowed the seal to relax and the "flap" to be able to return to its natural position. But the to slices that created the flap remained.
Now that the cause of death is known, we are looking into possible perpetrators, accomplices, motives, and ways to prevent such a fatality in the future.
in summary, the dang thing went to far, fell apart and f'ed itself up trying to get back together. and now i need to figure out why, and keep it from doing it again.
That was 1 sentence... they always act like if you call them they can work magic for you on a clutch.
Let's not make this more difficult than it needs to be.
Sounds like you have the wrong pressure plate for your car. We had this issue once. Gm also redesigned there TOB/Slaves in 05 to keep them from over extending.
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:Sounds like you have the wrong pressure plate for your car. We had this issue once. Gm also redesigned there TOB/Slaves in 05 to keep them from over extending.
hmmmm....
any chance an 05 slave would bolt up to a 02 getrag????
ken soggs wrote:John Higgins wrote:Sounds like you have the wrong pressure plate for your car. We had this issue once. Gm also redesigned there TOB/Slaves in 05 to keep them from over extending.
hmmmm....
any chance an 05 slave would bolt up to a 02 getrag????
Yes, 00+ is the same. Still that is not your complete issue. Do you have your stock pressure plate? Also is the flywheel stock?
FU Tuning
the flywheel is a stock unit off a 98 2.4L
the clutch disk and pressure plate are a centerforce dual friction setup for a 98 2.4L
i got the whole assembly off a 98.. it was slightly used, from a guy who totaled his 98.
I was told that as long as you kept all 3 matching, you could swap them, and still use your original slave for the year tranny you have.
I read centerforce's dont have as tall of fingers... so they need a lil more throw... and my slaves obviouly dont handle that well...
i dont know for sure if there is a difference from 98 to 02 in total clutch height... i just know the 98 has a taller flywheel and a shorter pres plate... but supposedly they are about the same as a whole...
You are running a 00+ getrag tranny correct? If so I think this is your issue. If you are using a 00+ getrag I would be using a 00+ flywheel and clutch, and pressure plate.
FU Tuning
I am really happy with my clutchmasters fx300 setup. I am not at the moment as I beleive I destroyed my pressure plate by not using locktite causing the bolts to come loose and the thus destoying the pressure plate....but that is all my fault.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
the bolts are cheep... need new ones?
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:the bolts are cheep... need new ones?
Chris
Cheap? Maybe at cost...
I just bought flywheel and pressure plate bolts because GM says they are torque to yield. I think list on the stuff was $108 for those two sets, I didn't pay that but geez that's hurtful for bolts.
12.770 @ 111.99 Intercooled Eaton M62
Airtonics wrote:Taetsch Z-24 wrote:the bolts are cheep... need new ones?
Chris
Cheap? Maybe at cost...
I just bought flywheel and pressure plate bolts because GM says they are torque to yield. I think list on the stuff was $108 for those two sets, I didn't pay that but geez that's hurtful for bolts.
I have always reused the stock ones, and even the flywheel bolts, head bolts (not on a performance build) etc..
FU Tuning
Wade Jarvis wrote:I am really happy with my clutchmasters fx300 setup. I am not at the moment as I beleive I destroyed my pressure plate by not using locktite causing the bolts to come loose and the thus destoying the pressure plate....but that is all my fault.
I would bet you did more damage to the clutch disc before the pressure plate.
FU Tuning
Quote:
I would be using a 00+ flywheel and clutch, and pressure plate.
the man speaks the truth. Always use the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel to the corrisponding year/make of tranny. Aaron at TTR helped me out with that same question a while ago.
lay a ruler across the clutch fingers (installed and new or near new clutch) and measure to the back of the block where the trans bolts do.
then lay a ruler across the bellhousing and measure to the face of the bearing (fully retracted).
the difference in the two measurements should be about 1/4" (can be more, but I'm not sure how much more. an 1/8" would seem ok).
If its way more, then some shimming or parts changing would be in order. In most cases, a spacer can be made to space it away from the trans to take up the difference.
If its right on, then there is an issue with the design of the pressure plate (wrong application?) that needs to be figured out.
sig not found
