Anyone know what these sidefeed injectors are capable of? i run 5psi no problems. But im wondering what i could actually run without jamming them. Ive red about "topfeed conversions" but have yet to actually find somone thats done it. I really want to have topfeed injectors but i dont want to switch everything to 98. Mainly my question is what can they handle? and what is everyone running for boost with the 95-97 2.2?

Emry

96 Camaro A4 383 12.5:1, E85, Full suspension, Nitrous outlet plate kit, hooker headers and catback, 3800 circle D converter.

2002 Silverado LQ4 6.0 CAI, Long tube headers, 4" exhaust

1996 s10- 97 ECU and wiring, soon to be boosted daily driver.

How do you know you're not running lean?





4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
Buy stuff from CarCustoms Ebay! Won't be disappointed!

good a/f ratio. Ive pulled the plugs several times looks great. And right now i have the head off of it, and everything look good.

Emry

96 Camaro A4 383 12.5:1, E85, Full suspension, Nitrous outlet plate kit, hooker headers and catback, 3800 circle D converter.

2002 Silverado LQ4 6.0 CAI, Long tube headers, 4" exhaust

1996 s10- 97 ECU and wiring, soon to be boosted daily driver.

The are a few people that have done a top-feed conversion, and I think everyone has used a different method so far. The only name I can think of right now is Tony Gibson (no longer around, check the archives), but there were also a couple fairly recently.
As far as how much the stockers can support, look the formula up online (use the duty cycle of your choice) and calculate it. If you're wondering how much fuel pressure they can hold without clipping, sorry, nobody knows.
If you want to support more power without going top-feed, or swapping a 2200 manifold on with a adapter plate, or swapping to a 2200 head, or building a custom manifold, then your best bet is extra injectors.
Good luck, you're pretty much screwed.
p.s. the ignorant 'sinrocker' (or whatever) will probably come in here and post about how you can send your injectors to RC and they can increase the flow. He is wrong, RC will not touch them. Then someone will mention that Venom sells upgraded injectors. These are only a 10% flow increase and not worth the time or money, as they can't support decent power. There have also been many reports of them leaking (which has been attributed to incorrect installation).



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

actuially venom will make several injectors for us. But talking to the tech at venom he insits that everytime you remove the injectors that you use new o rings and to use grease when you install them.
if wanted i can get his number for you guys and the part number (special build)


horsepower is how hard you hit the wall, Torque is how far you push the wall with you

You're pushing things at 5psi. You can hit almost 6 at lower rpm, but you better drop the boost quickly as rpm comes up. Even with an ecm capable of reading boost, the injectors will quickly go static and leaving only flow increases due to pressure change to provide extra fuel. That's dangerous and asking for trouble.

BTW, max pressure for the stock injectors, according to Delphi (GM) is around 90 psi. If you're running higher fuel pressure then you're risking injector failure.

Love to get some real info from Venom for custom injectors. If it's no big deal to get 'em, why is no one using them?

-->Slow

I tried the upgrade route and ended up building a custom intake for standard RC injectors. I was one of the poor souls that thought RC could make injectors and I even tried Venom injectors and they were fine for a little extfra fuel for an all motor setup but worthless when I added the turbo. Believe me when I say it's a pain in the ass and it took me a lot of blood sweat and sheetmetal to get it right. You really have to know how different factors like plenum size, runner length and shape, throttlebody choice, all of that will work together. And you have to make or adapt a fuel rail and a regulator to make it work. And good luck making the ECU run the injectors. I ended up using a full stand alone.


"Silly cluth, glazing is for donuts!"

Ronin, do you have any pics? sounds sick.



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

OHV notec wrote:p.s. the ignorant 'sinrocker' (or whatever) will probably come in here and post about how you can send your injectors to RC and they can increase the flow. He is wrong, RC will not touch them. Then someone will mention that Venom sells upgraded injectors. These are only a 10% flow increase and not worth the time or money, as they can't support decent power. There have also been many reports of them leaking (which has been attributed to incorrect installation).

sorry man, but this made me laugh out loud. This last paragraph depicts about every single sidefeed injector thread ever made on JBO. haha!

I have 4 TBI injectors here that I don't want.. If anyone has a use for them, I'd gladly sell them for cheap. buyer pays shipping.

After realising how much of a PAIN IN THE ASS the TBI injectors are to run, I decided to build my own top feed conversion too.

Tony Gibson lives about 5 minutes away from my house, so he's been very helpful throughout my entire build.

I'm using a 2.3HO fuel rail and aluminum injector bungs I found online. I want to start this conversion process ASAP. I've also decided that instead of @!#$ around with 'gm style' FPR's, I'll buy an aeromotive universal adj.FPR and mount it to my strut tower.

I wish but I don't have a digital camera. I don't even own a computer. I'm at work when I'm on here. Says a lot for my work ethic, huh? Hell, when I tuned the car I used a friend's laptop. I need to get some pics because the intake workd pretty well, but then again, I did manage to blow the motor.


"Silly cluth, glazing is for donuts!"

Ronin i pm'd you. We'll im gonna continue running stock injectors for now. Hopefully it wont blow up lol. So far everything looks good. I hope it says that way.

Emry

96 Camaro A4 383 12.5:1, E85, Full suspension, Nitrous outlet plate kit, hooker headers and catback, 3800 circle D converter.

2002 Silverado LQ4 6.0 CAI, Long tube headers, 4" exhaust

1996 s10- 97 ECU and wiring, soon to be boosted daily driver.

Stevefire: why the 2.3 rail? I have 2.3, 2.4, and 2200 rails laying in the garage, and the 2200 lines up perfectly. Are you going to be mounting the injectors further back in the rail? What are you doing about the difference in port spacing?
Now, if it's a custom manifold, then yeah, I could see the appeal of the 2.3 rail...
Oh yeah, I hope you have better luck than Tony...poor guy...



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

I'm not one to criticize people's work, but the problem's Tony had were not just due to bad luck. (ie; tuning)

the 2.3ho rail injector spacing is approximately 4.5", and the port spacing on the manifold is approximately 4.5" or so I've calculated it out to be. (its real close)

I'm basically doing it the same way Tony did his, except my injectors will/should be a straight 90 degrees to the manifold, and not angled like the 2200's are. The only problem I may run into is spacing between the throttle body and the rail.

damn they need an edit button:
If I do have clearance issues with the throttle body to rail, I have to angle them down a bit more.

I'm waiting for my friggin' manifold to be done porting and then I can start chomping at the bit. I gave it to a very unreliable person.

Simple Digital Systems EIC.




I was a retard, and now I'm permanently banned.

Quote:

After realising how much of a PAIN IN THE ASS the TBI injectors are to run, I decided to build my own top feed conversion too.

Ouch! Why did you decide they're a PITA? I thought they were a bunch less work than building a top feed conversion. Pop old injectors out, pop new ones in, change 2 chips in the ecm, add two wires to the injector harness. Seems to me that the problem for you is GM deciding to make the rest of the car's electronics tie in together. That, and tuning the OEM ecm. If your car were one year older the swap would be no big deal.

The reason I'm telling people the top feed is easier is because it's tough to tune the TBI injectors. Ii know most people won't have the patience to stick with this like I did. But with my calibration close to done the major portion of the tuning is already taken care of. Again, it's too bad you don't have a 2nd gen.

Ronin, it sounds like you put a huge amount of work into your project. GM did a fair job of figuring out a reasonable intake, though it could use more plenum volume. The sheetmetal intake is neat but I think there are easier ways get top feed injectors installed. I only say this because I think too many people feel the 2.2 engine is hopeless due to the injector issue. If you get pictures of your setup I'm sure the OHV guys would love to see 'em.

Emry, I can afford to gamble since I have a spare vehicle. But even I didn't leave stock injectors installed for too long. The biggest thing you can do to prevent problems is fight the urge to turn up the boost. Even then there's no guarantee.

-->Slow

OHV notec wrote:Stevefire: why the 2.3 rail? I have 2.3, 2.4, and 2200 rails laying in the garage, and the 2200 lines up perfectly. Are you going to be mounting the injectors further back in the rail? What are you doing about the difference in port spacing?
Now, if it's a custom manifold, then yeah, I could see the appeal of the 2.3 rail...
Oh yeah, I hope you have better luck than Tony...poor guy...

I told you stock injectors aren't going to do ......

DAMN IT EMRY.... JUST DO A TOP FEED CONVERSION !!!!!! if the head is off right now ..... then @!#$ it......... just get er done !!

Lee


JDM Civic Hatch
Status: Parting Out Turbo Kit....
14.224 @ 102.01MPH @ 5.5psi.... 2.3 60'
Next: Civic JDM B16a2 w/GSR LSD Turbo - Goal 300whp 1400lbs...

Ok i took some measurments last night, and finished them and some sketches today. I have a plan for my first attempt. Im gonna go to the salvage yard today and get a 2200 fuel rail, and injectors off of a 98 2200 they have. im gonna grab a 2.3 rail while im there, and take the connector plugs too off the 98. Tomarrow im gonna go play on the cnc and make a couple things. Hopefully it'll turn out right, im sure its gonna take many tries, but me bein 17 doesnt help. Lack of funds...

Emry

96 Camaro A4 383 12.5:1, E85, Full suspension, Nitrous outlet plate kit, hooker headers and catback, 3800 circle D converter.

2002 Silverado LQ4 6.0 CAI, Long tube headers, 4" exhaust

1996 s10- 97 ECU and wiring, soon to be boosted daily driver.

the 2200 rail would make it easier, because apparently the fuel rail is set to the same angle that the pre'98 injectors bores are at.

completely removing the pre'98 injector bosses means I have more room to play with angling back of the injectors. I have 4 'spare' injectors that I will use when I weld up my bosch style bungs so all spacing will be correct.

its a pain in the ass, and I wish I didn't have to do it, however it seems to be the best way to rid myself of the headaches of side fed injectors

slowolej;

Although I'll be running a Haltech and not my factory ECU, I grew concerned that I may not be able to idle such big injectors and such a low fuel pressure. So what I've decided to do is a bosch style top feed injector conversion, and keep my fuel pressure at or around 43.5psi. No worrying about fuel atomization at that pressure, and I know my Haltech can idle 72#r's at 43psi. My only concern at this point is how much space between the TB and the fuel rail I'm going to have, and how far into the intake manifold the injectors will sit. (I want them to sit far enough in so as to provide the greatest amount of atomization)

The port spacing is the same on all the heads/manifolds, but the 2.2L ports enter the head at an angle, and the ports run through the head at an angle. So, if you use the stock manifold, you have to angle the injectors to spray along the air stream to the valve. If you spray straight in, you will not be spraying in the center of the port, and it will be at an angle with the air stream, and just hit the wall of the port...I hope that made sense



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

slowolej wrote:

Quote:


Ronin, it sounds like you put a huge amount of work into your project. GM did a fair job of figuring out a reasonable intake, though it could use more plenum volume. The sheetmetal intake is neat but I think there are easier ways get top feed injectors installed. I only say this because I think too many people feel the 2.2 engine is hopeless due to the injector issue. If you get pictures of your setup I'm sure the OHV guys would love to see 'em.

-->Slow

I did, but I wasn't alone in this. I have friends that have been building engines for years and without them I wouldn't have even tried it. On the other hand, If I had to do it all over again, I would have tried a different approach. This project was my first Cavalier. Prior to this car I worked mostly on Hondas and Mitsubishis. Honestly, I don't know why GM decided to design the intake the way they did but I wanted to find a better way. I really can't say my way was better, in fact, I'd say adapting injectors to the stock intake would be a better approach.


"Silly cluth, glazing is for donuts!"

I wish a few guys were a little closer to this area. Maybe I'll take a video of the car idling, just to keep tha faith up. Still, a good top feed conversion will make it easier to use any common injector.

I think a jig set up to duplicate the fuel rail and 4 injectors is the best way to go. The jig can be adjusted and readjusted as necessary to make all angles correct before installing any fuel rail. With the jig sized right to fit snug in the injector bosses, it will hold the bosses securely while they are welded into the intake. Real injectors OTOH won't like heat. They'll melt, smoke, and stink if left in the injector bungs while welding occurs around them. Building a jig may seem like extra work but it will allow for many mistakes to occur before anything is actually welded in place.

Quote:

I don't know why GM decided to design the intake the way they did but I wanted to find a better way.

GM built the Cavvy to be cheap. I wouldn't be surprised if a cost analysis determined that the separate costs of machining a fuel rail and using PFI injectors was too much. I think that GM was able to recover a bunch of money when they converted to plastic intakes and stamped steel fuel rails rather than machined aluminum in 98, which allowed them to use regular injectors and stay in budget.
What surprises and disappoints me is that they didn't use this setup on more engines. We might have had more injector choices that way.

-->Slow

This is my top feed conversion as it currently sits.
98 + 2200 fuel rail, 36lb/hr GTP injectors and a little machine work.

whether the smoke or stink or whatever i just have to use them to get the spacing, other thne that they are garbage.

I have to look closer at the port shape and the 'angle' in which I'm going to weld the bungs.

poundin'fire, that looks like a wicked setup.

perhaps I will take your advice and make a jig.

we'll see what pans out when it comes down to it