This may be a little premature, but I'd love to help the early 3rd gen 2.2 owners with the injector issue. I've found a solution for my '93. I'm using TBI injectors and a modified computer to drive them. I learned really fast that most guys don't want to mod a computer, so I'm trying to figure out what it takes to run these injectors on the factory pcm.
GM often makes one computer able to handle multiple jobs. For example, the stock 1989 turbo Sunbird computer can be used with either low resistance or high resistance injectors. I believe PCM's may be swappable between different 3rd J-cars. I'm really thinking that a modified version of the supercharged 2.4 calibration would be waaay cool as it "understands" boost.
If anyone wants to add/ correct what I have, feel free. Here's what I have:
Injectors:
95+ 2.3/2.4 = low resistance ??? (need info here)
95+ 2.2 = high resistance (also, only 17 lbs/hr fuel flow)
95 2.2 cars fir 2 banks of 2 injectors. 96+ cars are sequential.
PCM:
95 2.2 16196285
95 2.3M 16196285
95 2.3A 16192232
96 2.2 16215830
96 2.4 16215830
97+ (all engines) 16228016
(Obtained from gmpartsdirect. Can anyone confirm these #'s?)
Any other vehicles use the same computers?
SC calibration is good for 98+ cars. Dash doesn't function if SC cal is installed on 97 cars. Anything else?
Anything else? Has anyone tried swapping computers from year to year? What did/didn't work?
Anyone wanna contribute a computer to be taken apart? I can't guarantee that it won't be destroyed or damaged, but a failed unit would be fine for this job. The computer would be returned after checking this out. A 97+ unit is preferred, although I'll look at anything that's sent.
Anyone have any pointers to previous discussions that would be really helpful?
Gotta have help from a few ambitious people to make this work. This won't benefit me, except the satisfaction of knowing that more of the 2.2 guys get to play hard, too. If there doesn't seem to be any interest, well, I guess you'll just hafta settle for watching me drive past you on the highway. ; )
-->Slow
97-99 = 16228016
00-02 = 9356249
i've got a 96 pcm that has been taken out of its casing as the casing was shot. pcb looks somewhat corroded, but it does still work.
all i really want to know is what you have done for fuel pressure, how low you were able to get it, and how does the car idle? personally, i'm fine with building injecor drivers that can drive low impedance, but also have no problems making the pcm do it too.
If you want any more part numbers let me know. i have the gm parts list for the jbody including pricing. <br>
Kevin Johnson
Jbody Club of Alberta
<a href ="http://www3.telus.net/public/styder" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/poundinfire/j-body_sig.gif"></a>
Quote:
all i really want to know is what you have done for fuel pressure, how low you were able to get it, and how does the car idle? personally, i'm fine with building injecor drivers that can drive low impedance, but also have no problems making the pcm do it too.
Lowered fuel pressure (23 psi key on/ engine off, 17.5 psi engine at idle) is obtained by using an adjustable FPR "hat" for an LT1, combined with a stock FPR spring with about 1 1/2 coils removed. The cut end of the spring was slightly heated, then bent, and ground flat with the cutoff wheel. This may not be necessary, but I felt it was best to make the spring like stock. Pressure can be dropped more if needed, but I'd be worried about atomization at those low pressures. And the tune works well enough now so that I won't change the pressure again.
Idle speed is at 988RPM (manual trans). The car idles down and sounds stock. It has a *tiny* amount of speed variation, but most people wouldn't even comment on it. I'm still working on a few issues during the warm up time, but they're coming into place. I can't really spend lots of time working on tuning with engine temp at 100 deg F, since it's only at that temp for a short time. What doesn't happen is that you don't walk to the rear of the car and smell bunches of raw fuel coming out the tailpipe.
Acceleration enrichment needed a _bunch_ of work. These injectors respond really differently than the OE ones. If you don't have a way to change the AE related stuff, the car will be problematic.
I suspect the 96 pcm may be set up for peak and hold injectors already. I believe the 2.4 uses that type of injectors. If so, the actual changes to the board might be limited to a current sense circuit for the injector and in the actual MOSFET which turns the injector on and off.
I found the thread that explains the S/C calibration is for 2000+ vehicles.
-->Slow
I've been researching injectors for the past few days, and i'm looking for a soultion for my 2.2L 1995 sunfire. I'm going to be going turbo in the near future. I plan on running e-manage, and i already got a wideband o2 sensor installed. i would like to run low psi in the beginning, but eventually getting to 15psi. and yes, the motor is going to be built.
So, I was wondering if the injector guru's had an input (slowolej, or juicedZ4, others...)
I saw RC had some solutions, but ofcourse, we all know the main problem here is the intake manifold, and getting something to fit, and run off ecu. I don't want the throttle body injector solution. I'd much rather just get 4 actual injector replacements and use the e-manage, and fuel pressure to tune the car.
Right now, the solutions I see are to get RC to re-flow my stock injectors (can that go up to 24 or 30lb/hr?) or get somekinda custom intake manifold and use readily available top feed injectors, which isn't out of the question. i can try to fabricate things, or learn that. my buddy is a certified welder. anyways, i'm getting off topic. So, i'm just looking for some more info on my options and possible other options. thanks.
I sent 4 injectors to a company that specializes in side feed injectors...
The last email I got from them they said the cap is spot welded on when the are normally screw on, so they are going to see what they can do....
If I have an update I will post a message...
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=130891
Glad this post was resurrected... I'm going to follow this one this time...
L8r...
___________
. . . . jb . . . .
...Son Fire!
*** Need some 1995 Cavalier parts ???
*** FOR SALE: doors, windows, interior, engine parts, fenders, etc. -- email me
I just recently got ahold of some 2.4 injectors that fit into the MSD injector bosses. I 'm waiting to re-assemble my front end and pull off the 96 2.2 intake manifold and slap on my new custom made short runner intake manifold that I built for my top feed conversion. I too have the s-afc2 which I will use and will be ordering the wideband commander to get true a/f readings. My only concern is retro fitting this bored out 2200 throttle body to my 2.2 throttle cable and making it open all the way. I'll figure it out when I get it actually installed. I will start a new post on my findings when I get that far.
I sent a question e-mail to rc engineering just a minute ago, explaining my problem, and if they had anything applicable. I know they probably don't, but its worth asking. They do have the $175 per injector fee, and the website says they can incrase flow 100%, which for the 2.2l 17lb/hr low impedance injectors would be more then enough. I really only need something like 24, or 27 if i'm going to run at most 15psi. We'll see what they say.
I wana know too.
When in doupt, grub.
Quote:
I sent a question e-mail to rc engineering just a minute ago, explaining my problem, and if they had anything applicable. I know they probably don't, but its worth asking. They do have the $175 per injector fee, and the website says they can incrase flow 100%, which for the 2.2l 17lb/hr low impedance injectors would be more then enough. I really only need something like 24, or 27 if i'm going to run at most 15psi. We'll see what they say.
i remember someone asking rc to do that to their 2.2ohv injectors. and if i remember correctly, they refused. good luck to ya though.
So, i had some time tonight and decided to take out the injectors. so, i've read people have tried other side feed injector types, but sizes didn't match? can anyone confirm that? I read the post about slowolej talking about the saturn injectors? but those were throttle body injectors, i believe.
I still have not heard back from rc yet. maybe i'll call them tomorrow.
I have a spare manifold and SR20DET injectors and when my motor goes to the machine shop I will ask about how hard it will be to get them to bore the injector hole out. The two injectors are not very different, but it would take some work to get them to fit. I will let you guys know how it comes out.
hmm, i know a friend where i live with a 240sx and i think he may have some of those SR20DET injectors laying around. I will check with him to look at them, and diameter. If the height is ok, then to bore that hole shouldn't be to bad. I'm up for modification to get some nice injectors in there.
Nope, he doesn't. Any one know the diameter of the sr20det injectors?
I suppose it may be possible to make a fuel rail, and use top feed, and i'd just need to seal off the current fuel rail, and seal the top feed injector in the injector hole. ofcourse setting it at the right height. Has anyone done somekinda top feed conversion themselfs? any tips, ideas?
It is a lot harder than what you think
Tony Gibson did that, and he said if a shop did what he did, it would have been around 800-1000 for labor and materals/
oh, ya. I know its going to be hella hard, and difficult. But, my car is still waiting on the block from jbodyperformance, and there's no head on the current engine, since i'm building it up, so this is something for me to think about and do in the meantime.
Now that I know at least one person did it, I know its not impossible. I'll see if I can talk with Tony about what he did.
Does anyone know the following for the OEM side-feed 1995 2.2L injectors?
-- Pintal design or disk design
-- Resistance rating (in ohms)
-- Stock flow rate is 17 lbs/hr, correct?
L8r...
___________
. . . . jb . . . .
...Son Fire!
*** Need some 1995 Cavalier parts ???
*** FOR SALE: doors, windows, interior, engine parts, fenders, etc. -- email me
I know the resistance is 12 ohms, I also believe it is a pintal design, but don't hold me to that one. Hope this helps
12 ohms? i thought it was low impedance, but i may be wrong. You're probably right actually, because I haven't measured them yet.
Tony is in contact with me, and hopefully, he'll be able to help me get something like what he's going setup.
Dan Morrison wrote:i remember someone asking rc to do that to their 2.2ohv injectors. and if i remember correctly, they refused. good luck to ya though.
I called RC back last summer and I was told they can take the injector apart, increase the flow, but cannot put it back together. It's just the way they were designed he said.
<img src="http://www.j-body.org/registry/amarkham/bomexcavi6sig.jpg">
Stock injectors are approx. 17 lbs/hr.
They are high impedance saturated injectors. Resistance measures 12-14 Ohms.
They are officially "Multec bottom feed" type (not "side feed") and they use a disc diffuser.
Pintle vs disc isn't as important when selecting replacement injectors. Go for size, flow, and then impedance.
I've looked at Tony's intake. It's very nice. I've been thinking about building one just to do it. Although Tony did a very nice job with his, I believe a practical street intake could be built with less effort and less money invested. The largest hurdle is getting the fuel rail and the throttle body to work together. I seem to remember thinking a spacer between plenum and lower intake combined with a modified fuel rail which drops under the tb might work. I haven't looked at it for 6-8 months, so I could be way off. Still, I am convinced that careful thought and planning combined with a few good tools will allow for a reasonably priced top feed conversion.
I've also found companies on the web selling low impedance injector driver boxes. These could be used to run the same Saturn injectors that I'm using.
Delphi may offer some pfi type bottom feed injectors which flow enough fuel. They have a paper which talks about using these injectors in motorsports, so you'd think they can supply them. I don't know if anyone's chased this down to a conclusion.
Good luck.
-->Slow ( happily boosted 7+ psi, non intercooled, stock 2.2 )
k, thanks for the info. much appreciated
so im planing on doing a top feed on my 94 2.2l they use a high impedence injector and obd2
the plan is to use a safc to control them as well as the stock computer .
i know how to do it but besides high impedence , flow and size of them what else do i need to know before finding the injectors that the stock comp and safc can control .
also will the safc work with the obd1 system
slamming 2 gen cavi
I have a spare head with manifold and injectors attached do you think RC engineering could use this to make better injectors? If they are in CA/ Los Angeles area i could drive it down to them to help you guys out . Does anyone think they'll take it just to see for appropriate measurement of injectors.
Sal
Sal,
That's sounds great to me.
I would give them a call and ask... Who knows what they'd be willing to do, right?
L8r...
___________
. . . . jb . . . .
...Son Fire!
*** Need some 1995 Cavalier parts ???
*** FOR SALE: doors, windows, interior, engine parts, fenders, etc. -- email me
