Well Im in the process off building a motor for boost, and my t3 super 60 just isnt going to cut it for my goals. Ive doing a little research on these, just wanted to see who in the J community is using them and thoughts on them. Im looking for something similar to like a gt30r76, would an HX35 or maybe smaller H1C be a good option? Just looking for something similar as Id rather not spend $1200+ on a garrett gt series or something when these are a much cheaper option and plenty have run them with great results.
I've got a GT3076R I might be looking to sell...brand new never ran it. They are cheaper for a reason, journal bearing...FTL
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
i know alot of guys running them, was thinking about getting one myself i dont see what would be bad about doing it except the lag.
Yea there are tons of hondas using them with good results. Much cheaper option, and a divided housing/manifold would help spool it up.
This is true, they are good turbos, dont get me wrong. I wasn't flaming them, just stating the facts. You will always find Garrett GT's outperforming them in similar sizes, but for twice the price, most wont care.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Joshua Dearman wrote:This is true, they are good turbos, dont get me wrong. I wasn't flaming them, just stating the facts. You will always find Garrett GT's outperforming them in similar sizes, but for twice the price, most wont care.
That's not true.
Borg Warner turbos outperform similarly sized Garrett units due to their Extended Tip compressor wheels.
They have a MUCH fatter island than any Garrett I have ever seen. On both paper, and in car tests.
My S251 (tad smaller then a S256) spools maybe 100-200 RPM slower then a GT3071R, but holds maximum boost almost a full 2,000RPM longer.
If you want you could even make up for the 200RPM slower responce by getting a bit smaller turbine housing, and still push more air then a 3071R, for the same RPM range.
The best part is i only payed $450 Canadian (+$200 for an extra Bullseye Power .55A/R turbine housing) for the turbo and it's good for 400WHP (it's maximum)
and you can't really beat the rebuild price if anything happens to it. I'd pick $350 for a rebuild versus $500 anyday.
i know alot of DSM guys are runing them and alot like them and are having good results with them. From what i've read they are extremly picky turbos with cooling and oiling tho. I know one guy on DSMtuners keeps posting about blowing his up. Last time i seen a post from him he was on this 4th Holset turbo in a month and cant figure out why becuase they were all brand new and none seems to be able to figure out why.
cause he should have bought a garrett....lol....jk
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Damn, 4 and 500.00 for a turbo?? Shiat, where was that at when I was looking at em 3 years ago?. I could of saved on my 1100.00 GT30 lol
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
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S362 14.6 psi 457WHP out of my uncles 2.0L GSR engine.
-Karo
I have seen many of them in installs....they are nice looking and do work well. Even those running them as there preferred turbo will admit they have chosen them due to the prohibitive cost of a Mitsu or Garrett model. They will also admit you get what you pay for. Not saying they are 1 step above fakey eBay turbos...but they are definitely a good step short of there higher price point competitors. Yes, there are impressive compressor curves and you can 'make it work' on the turbine side with the spooling with divided flange setups or smaller A/R's but lets not pretend like Garrett's don't come in DF or smaller A/R's too which will still beat. End result, they are a nice low budget option..and if you can't get your oil pressures or other factors well enough in spec to really help keep the Garrett's happy then likely the rebuild timing will end up being the same anyway. You will probly be ahead of the $ game with a BW unit at the end of the day overall. The argument that BW units offer better maps for our application is a valid point but lets not forget there are companies out there that offer modified Garrett units which will have similar maps that match our platforms better than the stock Garrett unit and will end up barely over the cost of the stock unit to begin with. So, I don't really weigh the maps too much...just gotta pay attention to what your buying and make sure it matches what you goals are and driving style. Once you do that, you will find a Garrett unit(modified or stock) that will compare to the map of a BW unit(which may have already been there in stock form). Again, tho, give the nice BB units what they need and they will/could outlast any journal units out there.
^When I mentioned Garrett above....obviously I meant the GT BB units and not the journal or journal GT units. Just to clarify.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Monday, July 13, 2009 10:00 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Karo (Car Customs) wrote:S362 14.6 psi 457WHP out of my uncles 2.0L GSR engine.
-Karo
goddamn that's impressive from relatively low boost on a 2.0L!
Ever thought of being a Bullseye Power retailer, Karo? I am looking to go bigger next season
lol
Joshua Dearman wrote:I have seen many of them in installs....they are nice looking and do work well. Even those running them as there preferred turbo will admit they have chosen them due to the prohibitive cost of a Mitsu or Garrett model. They will also admit you get what you pay for. Not saying they are 1 step above fakey eBay turbos...but they are definitely a good step short of there higher price point competitors. Yes, there are impressive compressor curves and you can 'make it work' on the turbine side with the spooling with divided flange setups or smaller A/R's but lets not pretend like Garrett's don't come in DF or smaller A/R's too which will still beat. End result, they are a nice low budget option..and if you can't get your oil pressures or other factors well enough in spec to really help keep the Garrett's happy then likely the rebuild timing will end up being the same anyway. You will probly be ahead of the $ game with a BW unit at the end of the day overall. The argument that BW units offer better maps for our application is a valid point but lets not forget there are companies out there that offer modified Garrett units which will have similar maps that match our platforms better than the stock Garrett unit and will end up barely over the cost of the stock unit to begin with. So, I don't really weigh the maps too much...just gotta pay attention to what your buying and make sure it matches what you goals are and driving style. Once you do that, you will find a Garrett unit(modified or stock) that will compare to the map of a BW unit(which may have already been there in stock form). Again, tho, give the nice BB units what they need and they will/could outlast any journal units out there.
^When I mentioned Garrett above....obviously I meant the GT BB units and not the journal or journal GT units. Just to clarify.
..so basically:
Stock form BW - versus - stock form Garrett = BW wins, hands down.
Stock form BW - versus - Modified Garrett = Garrett wins by a smidgen.
now do the PROPER comparison
Modified BW - versus - Modified Garrett = BW with a second win for the good guys (w00t w00t).
When you do price comparisons for both that's when the truth really shines through.
a BW in stock form will cost anywhere from $250 - $800 (S200 series)
a Garrett in stock form can cost anywhere from $300 - $1100 (obviously in a similarly sized form to the S200 specs)
a Modified BW (Bullseye Power, for example) starts at $1,180 for a S256 which claims a remarkable horsepower rating of 550 BHP
a Modified Garrett (Precision Turbo, for example) compairable to the S256, is a GT 3076R priced at $1,399, also rated for 550 BHP
I would get into journal versus BB rebuilding prices, but my lunch break is over
and in NO way am i saying that Garrett is the suxors, i'd pick up a Garrett over a Mitsu anyday. I just believe that the prices for BB units isn't justified due to them still having a bit of a limitation over a BW unit.
Now if someone paired up a BB CHRA and BW wheels....that'd be orgasmic.
Been running a borg for 5 years now.
It's time has come, though... it's going in the garbage in favour of a GT3582r. It did me well, though.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
I'm currently running a HY35 on my eco and love it altho it took a little convincing to get it to fit. Spool times aren't that bad and top end is crazy!
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had an hx35 with bullseye housing, ran it at its maxx of 42.2 psi in my 92 talon tsi
Built&Boosted moar
04 Cavalier Turbo r.i.p my baby
2nd place 2009 GM tuner bash qwick 8--holla
Thrice . wrote:
Stock form BW - versus - stock form Garrett = BW wins, hands down.
Due to the compressor maps (and for our platform)...yes
Thrice . wrote:
Stock form BW - versus - Modified Garrett = Garrett wins by a smidgen.
Alot more than a smidgen...but you got the right idea.
Thrice . wrote:
now do the PROPER comparison
Modified BW - versus - Modified Garrett = BW with a second win for the good guys (w00t w00t).
No, I dont think you could 'modify' a BW unit enough to make as much of a difference as you can with a modified BB Garrett unit.
Thrice . wrote:
When you do price comparisons for both that's when the truth really shines through.
a BW in stock form will cost anywhere from $250 - $800 (S200 series)
a Garrett in stock form can cost anywhere from $300 - $1100 (obviously in a similarly sized form to the S200 specs)
a Modified BW (Bullseye Power, for example) starts at $1,180 for a S256 which claims a remarkable horsepower rating of 550 BHP
a Modified Garrett (Precision Turbo, for example) compairable to the S256, is a GT 3076R priced at $1,399, also rated for 550 BHP
Thats my point right there^...so you save $200..ok. When it comes to longevity and spooling of the BB unit..thats $200 well spent IMO.
Thrice . wrote:
I would get into journal versus BB rebuilding prices, but my lunch break is over
Right, I know what you mean, but if you can get your turbo requirements right you will be rebuilding your BW unit more often than the similar sized BB Garrett.
Thrice . wrote:
and in NO way am i saying that Garrett is the suxors, i'd pick up a Garrett over a Mitsu anyday. I just believe that the prices for BB units isn't justified due to them still having a bit of a limitation over a BW unit.
I understand what your saying 100%, and I'm not saying BW leaves much left on the table either, both good options. I just think from an investment(if you will) standpoint a Garrett BB unit is the way to go.
Thrice . wrote:
Now if someone paired up a BB CHRA and BW wheels....that'd be orgasmic.
Then it would be a garrett...lol...again, jk
EDIT:
Thrice . wrote:
win for the good guys (w00t w00t).
This isn't about good and bad, this is about personal preference pretty much. The facts show a slight to moderate savings of $ over a Garrett unit but one can't argue the performance gains of a BB unit either....toss a coin...whats more important to you?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:47 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
K03 Sport FTW!! lol
In all seriousness though, if their bigger turbos can take as much abuse as the tiny little K03 I had in my Beetle, than they're a damn solid unit. I put a 50K mi used K03 Sport in to replace the K03 (minimal upgrade really but for $100 what did I care?), and then overspun the crap out of it to run 20psi for 2 solid years with nary a problem (well, that wasn't related to a crappy tune or other mechanical components anyway)
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Quote:
No, I dont think you could 'modify' a BW unit enough to make as much of a difference as you can with a modified BB Garrett unit.
Yup, you can. excluding the BB CHRA, a turbo is a turbo, is a turbo. Whatever you do to a Garrett to improve efficiency, damn skippy you can do it to a BW as well.
Quote:
Thats my point right there^...so you save $200..ok. When it comes to longevity and spooling of the BB unit..thats $200 well spent IMO.
I'm not calling you a lier, but, do you happen to have any proof you'd be willing to post up just to clear the air? One of the main reasons, aside from price, that i went with a BW unit is DUE to their GOOD longevity.
I'm not sure if you know this, but i'll post it just for reference incase anyone else is wondering as well..
BW is an OEM (Original Equipment Manufactuer) for Caterpiller, Cummins Diesel, John Deere, and many other industrial and Automotive companies (including the new Cobalt SS/TC) that need effiecient and capable (rugged) long lasting turbos. When you think of the fact that Holset turbos on the Dodge Cummins last likely 500,000+ KM (sorry, i'm Canadian lol) running 30+ psi of boost, consistantly, without error, that's longer then anyone on the JBO would even care to own their J. To me, that's $200 well saved.
oh, and i'll mention it again incase it got missed, all the BB CHRA does for performance is help advance spool time and that's it. It does nothing for top end. Whereas the ETT (Extended Tip Technology) on the S series of BW units up compressor performance considerably, allowing the wheels to spin faster then a compairable GT BB Garrett snail, AND push more boost which is exactly where the BW turbos love to be, extremely high pressure ratios.
YES, i will admit, it COULD make the turbo a little bit less stable then a BB CHRA but ONLY if maintenence goes neglected. As long as you keep up with oil changes and change the oil feed and drain lines at the same time, you'll have no problem running a BW just as long as a BB Garrett.
I'm also willing to give up 200 - maybe 300 RPM MAX of spool time for full boost all the way to 7,000RPM. (I'll be revving to 8,100 RPM next season....stupid ECU won't let me go to 8,500
)
Quote:
This isn't about good and bad, this is about personal preference pretty much. The facts show a slight to moderate savings of $ over a Garrett unit but one can't argue the performance gains of a BB unit either....toss a coin...whats more important to you?
I was only kidding lol. I don't actually have the same God complex as Rodimus Prime lol.
I'm not trying to start an argument by any means, and i apologize if i came off that way. I just think the Borg Warner doesn't get enough credit and is always shadowed by the massiveness that is, Garrett.
Well....I really think we are talking about the same points here....you mentioned extended tip compressors...right. companies do put similar designs on Garretts which can make that BW advantage now equal...again, for not much more price. So, once you have the same/similar compressor wheels and the same turbine options...what are you left with? A journal bearing turbo and a BB unit...bottom line the Garrett will get you BB units for not much more and it will be a better performing turbo given all other things constant. That's all my point really is. I could agree with you for the most part on good longevity on the BW units, I personally have seen several burned down units but the owner is of questionable intelligence to begin with....that said, he did switch to a Garrett and is has held up. I seen and heard other similar situations but honestly nothing that I could really post up here with any real legitimacy other they what I'm doing now....ya know. But you're probly right...BW sure wouldn't be around this long if they sold crap.
LOL'd at the Rodimus poke....
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Robert Sawyer wrote:email
.... toothbrush....
look at that, i can post random words too, cool eh?
