Tired of my oil issues - Advice? - Boost Forum
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Rarely do I post on here asking about issues I'm having. I'm all about researching the crap out of stuff and figuring it out but this has had me stumped for 2 years and it's gotten to me.
Ever since I had the first built motor 2 seasons ago my car has eaten oil like a champ. It eats oil fast.
For the Air/Oil separator I run the line from the crank case to the separator to a catch can to the turbo intake pre-turbo.
I've gone through 3 different 1/2" Turbo drain lines into the pan. 2 different oil pans with different inlet fittings.
I've used 2 different oil sending lines with 2 different restrictors.
I have blown the same turbo twice in 2 years. I don't overfill the oil, I've run many grades from 20w50 to 10w30.
I blew the turbo on the way home from the bash with less than 4000 miles on it. I have oil on spark plug #4 on the threads. (not the tip) The car does not seem down on power but HPT logs a misfire on cyl 4 at all times (I'm thinking due to oil vapour)... I only took notice of this after the turbo blew, though.
I have had a phantom exterior oil leak on the car for 2 years that I CANNOT find. It just seems to come from nowhere.
I've had oil coming out from under the cam tower bolts - I had to use sealer on the underside of them with washers to stop this phenomenon.
As soon as the turbo blew and the car started smoking like a beast at idle, my catch can started to fill up a little bit. Prior to that it was dry from break-in onward. I am running total seal piston rings... I haven't done a compression test yet but nothing leads me to believe I blew a ring or land or something - I'd HAVE to be down on power. I'm not. Plus the oil isn't on the plug tip.
I have a 2.5" downpipe for the turbo with inernal wastegate. I'm wondering if there's too much exhaust backpressure on the turbo leading to premature seal failure. I'm converting to external this winter (44mm) and leaving the 2.5" downpipe in place. I've only boosted 10 psi on the 2nd built motor.
... With all those symptoms... I need to point out that I have had the PCV Hole in the head blocked this entire time. I have the flange tapped with the Barb fitting there, but it has been blocked by the modified 2.3 manifold gasket.
I'm starting to wonder if it's the solution to all my effin problems. My 2.2 beater was eating oil for 2 years, changed the PCV in sept and now it runs clean, no oil loss. That immediately made me think of the built LD9 and all the effed up oil issues I have.
What EXACTLY does that pcv hole do. When is it used. Under load? Just idle?
Any help here from the boosted guys (esp with LD9's) would be great. I'm sick of battling this problem and rebuilding a turbo every 4000km is starting to REALLY irk me. My oil lines from ATP turbo are less than 3000 km old and I'm running their restrictor now.
This is the #1 reason why I keep not getting dyno #'s. As soon as I get to start tuning the car it blows a turbo... oil smoke everywhere. Then I redo EVERYTHING and try again. It's getting old fast.
Thanks,
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
I have my catchcan running into the rear of the ho manifold. I also have an oil leak but I have traced it back to the location of the stock oil pressure sensor. I am not using the stock sensor and the npt fitting I have in place seems to leak a small amount on top of my head and auto trans. Not sure about the pcv since mine is also blocked off?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:31 AM
I hope you have a checkvalve on that line running from the can to the H.O manifold otherwise you're boosting your crankcase and creating blow-by....
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
thats some thick oil you are running....
do you have a restrictor at the turbo? and what turbo is it?
Reading > you John! :p
Yes I'm running the ATP restrictor... I had a different one on there last season with the different sending line. Now running the custom length ATP sending line.
Turbo is a BorgWarner / IHI GM-3 unit. It's a T3/04E hybrid with a .7 ar compressor and a 57 trim wheel, and a .6 ar turbine with a stage 2 wheel.
I've had it professionally rebuilt twice already. (Including blasting, machining, new seals, new bearings, balancing, etc.)
I know it's not the turbo being crap due to the oil issues I'm having. It seems to be pushing past places it has no business pushing past. I can't figure out why.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
SweetnessGT wrote:Reading > you John! :p
-Chris-
thats the understatement of the century.
where is it coming out of exactly???
and your phantom leak....have you tried UV dye?
No... no dye.
I've had oil leak out of the cam tower bolts which is WEIRD to say the least.
I've had it blow out the exhaust side of the turbo...
I've had it leak into cylinder 4 on the spark plug threads. (no oil is leaking between the cam towers so I know it's not coming from those gaskets... they actually don't leak. What a shock)
The external leak is hard to say. It drips off the back of the oil pan near the return fitting but it's tig welded AND jb welded on top of that to the pan. It seems to come from higher up. I have a new return line fitting at the turbo with gasket, new clamps, new line, everything... it's not the return line itself. I'ts almost like it's being pushed out of the backingplate of the turbo on the compressor side. I get a drop of oil collecting on the bottom of the turbo on the compressor. The issue is where it drips, when I'm driving the oil drips back onto the axle and it's flung EVERYWHERE behind the motor so everything gets soaked after 1 drive.
The car EATS oil. Even before the turbo blew. It makes no sense to me other than it's being pushed out. (Leading to my PCV suspicion)
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
how is your return line routed?? any sharp bends or restrictive points??
I would agree the PCV system could also be the main culprit.
Redone the Oil return a few times. It's a gradual "S" down... that's about the only way to do it down to the 2.4 pan to get it past the axle from the turbo using a log manifold.
It's a 1/2" drain line. I know it's not massive but it should be good enough to do the trick. The turbo wouldn't have run for 4000 miles without smoking a drop if the line was bad... at least I hope not lol.
Blowing turbo's is my secondary concern.... the oil leaking from the motor left and right and into cylinder 4 is what's worrying me. I'm wondering if cyl 4 has oil on the threads because it's closest to the TB where the oil vapour from the blown turbo is entering the intake tract.
Cyl 1-3 were clean and do not misifre. I get up to 24 misfire counts on cyl 4 in less than 10 seconds at idle.
Like seriously I'm using a bottle of oil every time I gas up. (300 miles tops)
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
pic of #4 plug, and through the plug hole would help.
is it burning oil?
or just spewing it?
After the turbo blew... it's blowing oil smoke like crazy at idle as soon as the car starts to get up to operating temperature.
Before that.... nothing.
No pic of #4 plug I don't have a digicam I'm sorry. The oil is only on the threads and the top of the piston is a bit wet from what I can see looking down the hole.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Chris when i had my oil leak last winter in my cav it was due to oil condesation that froze in the pcv system. Which in turn blocked all my crank case venting and caused pressure in the case. I would check the pcv block on the front of the motor under the intake manifold and determine if that is not clogged at all.
TOM! Gimme a call! 
Yes I plan to remove the air/oil separator next spring when I pull the intake manifold to get a look and see if there's anything in it, or the lines that lead to and from it.
Any idea what the PCV hole in the HEAD is for though?
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
I think the hole in the head creates a slight vacuum in the cam tower.
SweetnessGT wrote:I hope you have a checkvalve on that line running from the can to the H.O manifold otherwise you're boosting your crankcase and creating blow-by....
yes, I have the bwoody oil catch and valve. How long has it been since you replaced the valve seals themselves? How did the seals in the turbo look the first time it was rebuilt?
BP
It's a built motor with about 8000 miles on it now. They're new. lol
I didn't get a look at the seals since I didn't pull it apart after it was assembled.... I was in a rush to get it back in the car. It didn't leak for 4000 miles or so and then started to leak like a freight train.
After it was blasted and cleaned it received oversized bearings and seals.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
damn.....
What are your plans as far as opening up the pcv hole? I've seen pics of the drilled HO manifold with a tapped barb fitting. Is this along the same plans you have? I probably need to do this next summer as well to avoid problems.
Yes that's what I plan to do, with a check valve, goin straight to the manifold.
But I'm kind of curious is anybody knows HOW that hole is used and why, etc.
The way I'm pushing oil past the cam tower BOLTS (at the top of the cam towers) tells me I HAVE to have some kind of unwanted pressure in there.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
ive often wondered what the little hole in the head was ultimately for as well...
hope you find out what the cause is, man. nothing pisses me off more then oil on a clean engine either, so i feel ur pain.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, October 30, 2008 2:14 PM
failing to prepare is preparing to fail.
i don't remember how big a quad pour fresh air breather is or where exactly it is? timing cover right??
def. sounds like a blow by issue. i suggest enlarging fresh air breather hole, or get a oil cap breather filter, either way it'll help reduce crankcase pressures.
if you have access to a LARGE diag vacuum/psi gauge try to see what your pressure or vacuum is at both the crankcase and the cam towers. They will typically have a cone adaptor that you can even place in the oil dipstick tube to get your crankcase readings but as far as getting the readings from the cam towers Im not familiar enough with the quad four to suggest a test point.
valve seals and or valve clearance to valve guide issues can also cause high psi problems in your cam towers (especially forced induction) and number 4 may be the source of both. since its wet AND misfiring.
Crank case pressure problems can cause all kinds of oil related issues.
certainly recommend oil dye for external leaks though.......
ASE Master Certified Automotive Technician
^^^ I agree about the comment of the crank case being pressurized being a huge problem and through a lot of reading over the past few months I've come to realize it's a huge problem for boosted motors if we don't vent the top end as well as we vent the bottom end. It seems like a lot of us overlook the PCV system in the head - many guys aren't even running turbo intakes and cannot run vaccum to the PCV system.
After sitting and thinking for a while I'm starting to believe that PCV hole in the head is the same as the Valve Cover vent for the 2.2 OHV and most Hondas.
Yes we have a somewhat decent crank case vent but if you let pressure build up in the head then you're just defeating a lot of purposes because you're still pressurizing one side of the system.
The fact that I can PUSH oil past the cam tower bolts means I have a huge problem and I need to resolve it. Blowing the turbo is just a secondary result of this, as are the oil leaks near the drain line. I think it's a matter of huge pressure not letting the turbo drain.
I made the mistake of runing 1/4" barb fittings on the catch can, and running the 1/4 line into the 1/2" line coming off the air oil separator. That's just stupid in hindsight. GM used 1/2" line for a reason, downsizing that to my catchcan is like bottlenecking the exhaust.
I'll be running a new 1/2" rubber hose from the crank case to the A/O Separator (the stock one is kinked a bit from factory)... then 1/2" rubber line from the other side of the A/O Separator to the catch can. (I will re-drill and tap the catch can for bigger fittings). Then I'll run 2 1/4" vents out of the catch can into the turbo intake (Since my powdercoated pipe has a 1/4" nipple on it already and I don't want to hack it off and damage the powdercoat).
For the PCV hole in the head - the one I suspect is a vent for the cam towers - I'm going to remove the tiny 1/8" npt fitting in my H.O manifold flange. I will re-drill and tap a 1/4" barb fitting, drill the gasket so the hole can breathe, and run the line into yet another new fitting in my catch can that's 1/4" in size. This will let the head have a proper vaccumed vent.
The reason I'm not going to run it straight to the manifold is that after careful thought I realized that GM ran that vent to the #2 runner for a reason. It's under vaccum at idle, and it's under tremendous vaccum at WOT. On my motor as soon as I got wot above 2300-2500 rpm I'm boosting, and a check valve would shut off the vent and not let it vent all the way to redline. A boosted motor needs to vent the MOST when it's boosting, not just under vaccum.
I'll be taking off the A/O Separator to inspect it and make sure it's not clogged, as well as the drainback port in the block.
Many high hp hondas run dual 1/2" vents off the valve cover to a catch can to vent all the pressure in the valve cover. It only makes sense that we need to do the same - except we cannot do it out the cam towers, lol.
It only makes sense that this is exactly what the port in the head is for, and why I'm blowing oil out of every place I can on the motor. I believe after I rebuild the turbo and do this I'll fix a lot of my problems.
#4 cylinder having oil on the threads is still a worry to me so I think I'll be doing a compression test tomorrow to see if it's ok. (As well as the other 3 cylinders).
I want this to be a discussion thread so that once and for all we can decide what to do with that port in the head, as well as the PCV system. I know David (Whitecavy) vented that port and stopped losing oil and leaking it everywhere... but it's just vented. David I think you should run a line to your catch can and then turbo intake.
Any thoughts/opinions on this are appreciated guys.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Chris, this may be a long shot but...
That pcv hole in the head being blocked might be an issue.. For example, before this past summer I had the hole blocked by my HO mani and I was burning oil like no other.. I had oil running down the front of the head\behind the HO mani..
I thought, what the hell.. So I took off the HO mani, realized that PCV hole was there and decided to drill a hole in my HO mani and adapter that matches to the PCV hole in the head.
What do ya know, to this day, 5 months later I have no burning oil issues, or oil leaks anymore.. I believe me letting the head breath better because of the PCV hole being open again stopped me from burning the oil.
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
SweetnessGT wrote:
I want this to be a discussion thread so that once and for all we can decide what to do with that port in the head, as well as the PCV system. I know David (Whitecavy) vented that port and stopped losing oil and leaking it everywhere... but it's just vented. David I think you should run a line to your catch can and then turbo intake.
Any thoughts/opinions on this are appreciated guys.
-Chris-
Duuurr, reading> me as well.
Ive thought about running that line, havent gotten around to it.
~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD
AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
I just put my ho mani on and dremeled a hole into the phenolic spacer some, then grinded a groove running to one cylinder. Ill see how it works over time.
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