It is getting about time for some new suspension for the cav and im unsure which to get.
The R3s are cheaper, have double height adjustment(please explain), and front pillow ball mounts. But the big turn off for me is no rear mounts and i havent ridden in a car with them.
The Teins are more expensive, single height adjustment, and full pillow ball mounts. Plus i have ridden in a cav with them and it felt like it was on rails.
The pillow ball mounts are important to me, but would the R3s be worth it over the Teins?
Discuss....
Also, is it possible to swap front sway bars without dropping the subframe?
219whp - I <3 whine
ok... im pretty sure both units have the front 'pillow ball' mounts, basically a 'pillow ball' is a rotational bearing mounted in a solid surface, think hiem joint. OEM's front solid mounts come with them as well. with that though, both also have camber adjustment.
the double height adjustment is tricky to explain... basically think of one as the standard coil adjustment where you use a spanner wrench to move the spring up or down, decreasing the length of the strut under load.
the other i can only explain as simply making the entire assembly SHORTER. where before it took moving the spring, now you are physically sucking the strut rod into the body itself, this making it a shorter unit. this way has been deemed better because it does not effect the spring rate.
using both in conjunction with one another is the absolute best way because you can fine tune each corner to the weight of the car if you so desire. and doing this makes the ultimate handling car. so, if you are willing to take the time, weigh each corner of the car individually and precisely map out you're suspension then these are going to be you're wet dream. if you have no idea how to do that or dont even care about it then the teins will be just fine.
really the only thing the teins have over the STD's are the rear mounts, which.. if you want them mark at OEM has told us on many occasions he would be willing to make a set for them, someone just needs to give him the measurements and done. no one has EVER had an issue with the OEM REAR mounts as far as ive ever heard. so if thats why you're leery, dont be.
the teins are more expensive BUT BUT BUT you CAN get the EDFC units and adjust you're ride from right inside the cabin, no getting out to screw the adjustment knobs, which IMO is totally bad ass. the std's do not offer this amazing add-on. and hell, i dont know that any other company out there even does.
in the end, one or the other have things the other can not do. its up to you really, wet dream tuning, or easy tuning.
and yes, you have to drop the subframe to get the front sway installed.
You can get the swap bar in without dropping teh subframe if the engine is out. It would still be much quicker to just drop the subframe though.
you actually can get the front sway bar in/out without dropping the subframe, AND with the engine in the car. i did it when i installed my Addco. it was a @!#$ nightmare to do so, but i did it, lol. i would never, ever recommend doing it that way, ever. it took a lot longer than it should have, and too much other stuff had to come apart in order to get the bars in/out, you have to get the D clamp bolts from the top of the engine bay, the header downpipe has to come out, both of the knuckles needed to be removed and some heavy persuasion was involved and some other stuff i cant remember... it was a bad idea. i'd strongly recommend dropping the frame instead, but it CAN be done if you're really, really determined, lol.
z yaaaa wrote:ok... im pretty sure both units have the front 'pillow ball' mounts, basically a 'pillow ball' is a rotational bearing mounted in a solid surface, think hiem joint. OEM's front solid mounts come with them as well. with that though, both also have camber adjustment.
I know both have front pillow ball mounts with camber adjustment. The rear mounts are the big selling point for the Teins over the STDs. Stock mounts dont last long where i live.
z yaaaa wrote:
the double height adjustment is tricky to explain... basically think of one as the standard coil adjustment where you use a spanner wrench to move the spring up or down, decreasing the length of the strut under load.
the other i can only explain as simply making the entire assembly SHORTER. where before it took moving the spring, now you are physically sucking the strut rod into the body itself, this making it a shorter unit. this way has been deemed better because it does not effect the spring rate.
using both in conjunction with one another is the absolute best way because you can fine tune each corner to the weight of the car if you so desire. and doing this makes the ultimate handling car. so, if you are willing to take the time, weigh each corner of the car individually and precisely map out you're suspension then these are going to be you're wet dream. if you have no idea how to do that or dont even care about it then the teins will be just fine.
So the main advantage to it is corner balancing?
z yaaaa wrote:
really the only thing the teins have over the STD's are the rear mounts, which.. if you want them mark at OEM has told us on many occasions he would be willing to make a set for them, someone just needs to give him the measurements and done. no one has EVER had an issue with the OEM REAR mounts as far as ive ever heard. so if thats why you're leery, dont be.
Front mount problems, "built" engine problems, etc, i am not going to take a chance with OEM.
z yaaaa wrote:
the teins are more expensive BUT BUT BUT you CAN get the EDFC units and adjust you're ride from right inside the cabin, no getting out to screw the adjustment knobs, which IMO is totally bad ass. the std's do not offer this amazing add-on. and hell, i dont know that any other company out there even does.
in the end, one or the other have things the other can not do. its up to you really, wet dream tuning, or easy tuning.
I dont really care about EDFC. With the amount of racing i'll be doing it wont be worth it.
I have ridden in Strat81's sedan and it handles like a wet dream. I should of have PJ take me for a ride in the 04 last year, but didnt think about it. Has anyone ridden in both STD and Tein J-bodies? Any noticeable handling differences?
I am leaning towards the Teins ATM, mainly because im more familiar with them. If STD made a set of R5s for us i'll probably get those.
My ride height will be whatever height my car ends up at when the control arms are in the "sweet spot"(parallel to the ground).
Also i'll be doing a progress rear sway and rear tie bar at the same time. I'll leave the front sway alone until i build another subframe(N-body control arms, Eibach sway, TTR K-brace, and Baer brakes). That way i only have to drop the subframe once(no lift or air tools makes it a PITA).
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:14 PM
219whp - I <3 whine
Im going to get a set of R3s when I have the money since they have the dual ride height adjustment. I want to be able to ride low and still not have a stiff ride or damage the strut. And all of the stuff with some people needing shorter springs in the rear but that depends on how low you want to go.
I havent ridden in a car with either but just looking at the specs and prices the R3s seem to be similar and cheaper but thats probably because of the lack of rear mounts but Im going to need new mounts anyways since Teins dont like the 99 mounts.
your problem with OEM is un-justified. their rear mounts have never been an issue with anyone else. they have sold several sets. there is no 'chance' to worry about.
the R5's are only better because they come with rear mounts iirc. so, OEM rear mounts (like i said) and ur golden.
but thats cool... teins are the @!#$. i have a set, i recommend them to anyone, the quality is amazing.
Tinkles wrote:z yaaaa wrote:
the double height adjustment is tricky to explain... basically think of one as the standard coil adjustment where you use a spanner wrench to move the spring up or down, decreasing the length of the strut under load.
the other i can only explain as simply making the entire assembly SHORTER. where before it took moving the spring, now you are physically sucking the strut rod into the body itself, this making it a shorter unit. this way has been deemed better because it does not effect the spring rate.
using both in conjunction with one another is the absolute best way because you can fine tune each corner to the weight of the car if you so desire. and doing this makes the ultimate handling car. so, if you are willing to take the time, weigh each corner of the car individually and precisely map out you're suspension then these are going to be you're wet dream. if you have no idea how to do that or dont even care about it then the teins will be just fine.
So the main advantage to it is corner balancing?
No the main advantage is not corner balancing, corner balancing is one of the main advantages of any adjustable setup. The main advantage is not losing suspension travel when you lower it.
Lets say you have a stock strut, with the car on stock springs sitting at ride height you can compress the strut down 3" (making up a random number for example sake) before the strut bottoms out. Now you add lowering springs, we will say a 1.5" drop, the strut is attached in all the same places on the spindle and the body as before but the ride height is lower, so the strut is now compressed 1.5" more at ride height.... that would leave you with 1.5" of suspension travel before the strut bottoms out. On a strut and any set up like Tein if you lower the ride height you are decreasing the range of suspension travel by however much you lower it.
With a dual height adjustment if you want to lower the ride height of the car 1.5" you can do that and then lower the second adjustment which will lower the strut itself. Think of it as taking the strut and mounting it 1.5" lower on the spindle. You've now lowered the the ride height with out losing ANY suspension travel because you lowered the strut as well, so your 1.5" drop would still have the same 3" of suspension travel as stock.
Make sense?
I know someone who bought OEM's rear mounts, and he didnt have any problems with it,
The pro kit springs, with my d specs at least, puts the control arms parallel to the ground, so figure your looking at a 1.2-1.5 inch body drop.
z yaaaa wrote:your problem with OEM is un-justified.
I agree, but i do not feel comfortable putting his products on my car.
Darkstars wrote:
No the main advantage is not corner balancing, corner balancing is one of the main advantages of any adjustable setup. The main advantage is not losing suspension travel when you lower it.
Lets say you have a stock strut, with the car on stock springs sitting at ride height you can compress the strut down 3" (making up a random number for example sake) before the strut bottoms out. Now you add lowering springs, we will say a 1.5" drop, the strut is attached in all the same places on the spindle and the body as before but the ride height is lower, so the strut is now compressed 1.5" more at ride height.... that would leave you with 1.5" of suspension travel before the strut bottoms out. On a strut and any set up like Tein if you lower the ride height you are decreasing the range of suspension travel by however much you lower it.
With a dual height adjustment if you want to lower the ride height of the car 1.5" you can do that and then lower the second adjustment which will lower the strut itself. Think of it as taking the strut and mounting it 1.5" lower on the spindle. You've now lowered the the ride height with out losing ANY suspension travel because you lowered the strut as well, so your 1.5" drop would still have the same 3" of suspension travel as stock.
Make sense?
Yep. You lower the car without losing suspension travel.
Darkstars wrote:Tinkles wrote:z yaaaa wrote:
the double height adjustment is tricky to explain... basically think of one as the standard coil adjustment where you use a spanner wrench to move the spring up or down, decreasing the length of the strut under load.
the other i can only explain as simply making the entire assembly SHORTER. where before it took moving the spring, now you are physically sucking the strut rod into the body itself, this making it a shorter unit. this way has been deemed better because it does not effect the spring rate.
using both in conjunction with one another is the absolute best way because you can fine tune each corner to the weight of the car if you so desire. and doing this makes the ultimate handling car. so, if you are willing to take the time, weigh each corner of the car individually and precisely map out you're suspension then these are going to be you're wet dream. if you have no idea how to do that or dont even care about it then the teins will be just fine.
So the main advantage to it is corner balancing?
No the main advantage is not corner balancing, corner balancing is one of the main advantages of any adjustable setup. The main advantage is not losing suspension travel when you lower it.
Lets say you have a stock strut, with the car on stock springs sitting at ride height you can compress the strut down 3" (making up a random number for example sake) before the strut bottoms out. Now you add lowering springs, we will say a 1.5" drop, the strut is attached in all the same places on the spindle and the body as before but the ride height is lower, so the strut is now compressed 1.5" more at ride height.... that would leave you with 1.5" of suspension travel before the strut bottoms out. On a strut and any set up like Tein if you lower the ride height you are decreasing the range of suspension travel by however much you lower it.
With a dual height adjustment if you want to lower the ride height of the car 1.5" you can do that and then lower the second adjustment which will lower the strut itself. Think of it as taking the strut and mounting it 1.5" lower on the spindle. You've now lowered the the ride height with out losing ANY suspension travel because you lowered the strut as well, so your 1.5" drop would still have the same 3" of suspension travel as stock.
Make sense?
ok were you trying to re-explain it to me or tinkles in a different way? because from i gather what you just said was exactly what i did in different words LOL
theres a set of Rk Sport Pro-street coilovers on ebay right now
Who cares? Does it really make a difference? It was to anyone who was interested in reading. I understood your post but his comment was asking if corner balance was the main advantage, which it is not, lowering with out losing suspension travel is. You said it was tricky to explain so I did it in detail for you.
tinkles you're over reacting about OEM, I have installed the rear mounts on 2 cars and have them on my car now, awesome quality stuff. Never had an issue with him. The engine thing seems to go both ways. The front mount problems were rectified...
I now have the STD R3's.... I will let you know when I receive them from shipment...
IMO JUST for the double ride height, STD all the way
LE61T PTE6262 Powered 
Darkstars wrote:Who cares? Does it really make a difference? It was to anyone who was interested in reading. I understood your post but his comment was asking if corner balance was the main advantage, which it is not, lowering with out losing suspension travel is. You said it was tricky to explain so I did it in detail for you.
no, it doesnt matter one bit. no need to get defensive.
not defensive, just confused on what or why your questioning anything about my post. Where you just trying to show everyone that you already knew what I just posted or what?
Brad, shhhhhh. I posted this after a 12 hour night shift, so if it seems "lacking" that's the reason.
Phil, i'll be waiting for your feedback.
z yaaaa wrote:
using both in conjunction with one another is the absolute best way because you can fine tune each corner to the weight of the car if you so desire. and doing this makes the ultimate handling car. so, if you are willing to take the time, weigh each corner of the car individually and precisely map out you're suspension then these are going to be you're wet dream. if you have no idea how to do that or dont even care about it then the teins will be just fine.
You can still corner weight a car without double height adjustment.......but your spring rate will slightly change between each corner. Doubt it would be enough to matter tho.
I have to say, the Tein SS rebound rate is amazingly well tuned for our platform. The bump is a little stiff, but being lowered(like mine is) it needs to be somewhat. If it is any token, when my Tein's get tired, I will send them in for rebuild.....and roll on them again.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
ok wtf... tell me that corner adjustment WITHOUT double height adjustment is as good as single and i am going to call you a dumbass. its not.
and ryan, jesus do you really enjoy trying to get a rise out of people THAT MUCH? give me a break. nobody is trying to sound like the smartest in the room. you had a better way of explaining it than i did, good job. i am not refuting it, never have. i dont care how i look, sorry if you feel i do.
z yaaaa wrote:ok wtf... tell me that corner adjustment WITHOUT double height adjustment is as good as single and i am going to call you a dumbass. its not.
LOL... I've done it. I did mention the corner rate will obviously change, but corner balancing IS possible on standard coilovers. I never said it was as easy...but you made it sound like it wasn't possible on standard coilovers...so to that I say you're wrong. Call whoever you want a dumbass, but I'm not wrong, I've done it.
It takes alot less adjustment to corner balance L/R then you'd think with proper layout of the car(where you put weight, planed and well thought-out) in mind before hand. I look at it this way, all springs are different, they may be close in specs but really once they are installed on a car all you got is basically a measuring tape as the only means to "dial-in" spring rates. Without an on car suspension dyno to actually do it right, everything else is a stab in the dark IMHO(single adjustment or dual..both in the same boat here). I have no problems moving a thread or two on standard coilovers to corner balance in exchange for possible slightly tweaked corner rates....or possibly corrected corner rates...who knows? All spings are going to have a +/-% difference of it's rated rate, so without actual dyno info in hand, they are not matching to begin with....
I don't feel the double height adjustment, while it is nice to have, is really needed unless you have a need to 'lay frame' as they say without constantly blowing suspension setups. For one to say it is 'more accurate' to tune, I say show me 1 person outside of full racing teams that actually does on car dyno's, tweaks then repeat until it is dead nuts on. Until this happens, the TRUE advantage of the double height adjustment is only as good as ones tape measure......
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Qwibby {T3H Old QBE} wrote:tinkles you're over reacting about OEM, I have installed the rear mounts on 2 cars and have them on my car now, awesome quality stuff. Never had an issue with him. The engine thing seems to go both ways. The front mount problems were rectified...
I now have the STD R3's.... I will let you know when I receive them from shipment...
IMO JUST for the double ride height, STD all the way
figures you would like having std's....lol
Joshua Dearman wrote:z yaaaa wrote:ok wtf... tell me that corner adjustment WITHOUT double height adjustment is as good as single and i am going to call you a dumbass. its not.
LOL... I've done it. I did mention the corner rate will obviously change, but corner balancing IS possible on standard coilovers. I never said it was as easy...but you made it sound like it wasn't possible on standard coilovers...so to that I say you're wrong. Call whoever you want a dumbass, but I'm not wrong, I've done it.
josh.. re-read my posts ive never once said corner balancing was not possible on a single adjustment.
i simply said it would work BEST to have the double adjustment.
any time you can have more adjustment in a set-up the more fine tuned you can get things.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:27 AM
Brad, shut up. You are not helping. Who cares about who said what? Yes i found Ryan's explanation better than yours.
z yaaaa wrote:Joshua Dearman wrote:z yaaaa wrote:ok wtf... tell me that corner adjustment WITHOUT double height adjustment is as good as single and i am going to call you a dumbass. its not.
LOL... I've done it. I did mention the corner rate will obviously change, but corner balancing IS possible on standard coilovers. I never said it was as easy...but you made it sound like it wasn't possible on standard coilovers...so to that I say you're wrong. Call whoever you want a dumbass, but I'm not wrong, I've done it.
josh.. re-read my posts ive never once said corner balancing was not possible on a single adjustment.
i simply said it would work BEST to have the double adjustment.
any time you can have more adjustment in a set-up the more fine tuned you can get things.
Sorry you're right, my bad there Brad. But in any case, yes you would then have two things to adjust....but with limited to no precision involved...I think that just gives you one more chance to get it wrong IMHO. I'd take one thing to adjust vs. two anyday.... It does make me sad to admit this since I do like the idea of dual adjustment, but I just couldn't justify that as a 'better' option compared to the single. They both have advantages, but without a REAL way to tune suspension on the car, it just adds to the complexity of your stab-in-the-dark.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Tinkles wrote:Brad, shut up. You are not helping. Who cares about who said what? Yes i found Ryan's explanation better than yours.
and you can just get off your high horse at any time.
what, you couldnt look this information up yourself? its not rocket science bro.
