As most of you know, I'm all into suspensions, and will do anything to have a complete setup.
With the addition of the all new components to the 'blu, have decided that I still wanted to use the tiebar that I had originally had on the car prior to the installation of the new components.
So far, I've seen others install the tiebar onto L brackets in conjunction with their Eibachs and Addco setups.
I was originally going to do this too but upon further inspection, decided to install this without the use of the L brackets to alleviate the extra weight of the brackets, and the fact that a direct hookup will outweigh a bracket hookup any day.
So here is the proposed setup I plan.
Below are the measurements I made for the actual bar along with the heim joint end links that will be needed for the install.
I'm using the original tiebar I had for these measurements since I had such good luck with it and never encountered any problems with the setup.
These measurements should work for either position I plan so either way you install this, it should work well.
Here is the proposed place I plan on mounting the tiebar which is directly onto the rear arm, just aft of the L bracket holding the Eibach/ Addco swaybar endlinks.
This is what it should look like for those wanting to know.
I premeasured the place where the hole would have to be drilled and this should work perfectly. The arm seems to be at least 12 gauge or 10 gauge steel so even with the hole drilled, should hold up well with any pressure applied.
A full view of what this will look like.
Here's the other proposed idea on where this can be mounted and will probably use this for my ultimate setup.
This is what it's going to look like when it's all said and done.
I'm going to research a couple of sources for all of the parts that are going to be needed for this install and when I do, will provide information on this along with direct links to the source.
Let me know what you think of this and feedback is appreciated.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO! 
I like the idea, it wont hit the spare "holder" (don't know what else to call it) thought will it(havent' looked at what the clearance is in a while
but I think the second way would be ideal, less of a chance to get it ripped off on something.
Yeah, I'm liking the second one too and will probably install it thatway.
If everything is right, I'm getting the entire setup from www.rodendsupply.com.
Here's the list of components I'll be using for my install.
I'll be verifying these once I call them up in a couple of days along with pricing.
Grade 8 3/8" nuts and bolts w/ washers
Rodendsupply.coms heim joint ends # PM6-7 This will cover the entire heim section.
Rodendsupply.coms swaged 6061-T6 aluminum radius rod
The above will cover a 46inch, center to center, complete tie rod assembly for the car.
Actual bar length will be 44 inches in length.
This will also include jam nuts and has a strength rating of 3700 lbs.
I'll get pricing by Wednesday.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
definatly liking the direction of this as it puts the bar farther out on the arms insted of back where the sway bar bolts to. (like mine)
do you think having a steel bar would work better than an aluminum? my aluminum seems kinda flimsy, but i DO notice a difference with or without it there though. i dont like extra weight and im not going to be auto crossing or anything real serious, so maybe i'll just stick with the aluminum bar.
If interested we can do all the leg work for everyone and make this item as a kit
Dont want to take your idea, just let us know if you would like help.
-Aaron
www.TurboTechRacing.com
Performance Parts For Cavalier, Sunfire, Cobalts and More!!!
Congratulations, you just created a solid rear axle. Prepare for snap oversteer. Not to disrespect your effort but this mod imo is only good for short and tight auto-x courses where you need the rear to turn. Otherwise it is dangerous to anyone that isn't prepared for the rear end to step out in a hard turn after lifting the throttle. Like on an on/off ramp to the freeway, which is where I test my handling mods. Just be careful.
Quote:
If interested we can do all the leg work for everyone and make this item as a kit
Dont want to take your idea, just let us know if you would like help.
-Aaron
www.TurboTechRacing.com
Aaron, you should know that you don't have to ask.
Why not?
I'm not sure how everyone is going to go for something like this but from my understanding of suspension geometry, physics, and implementation, this should be a very nice mod.
I'd prefer the aluminum swaged style for extra rigidity.
There's no torsional stress placed on the bar or any kind of sheer so the swaged style would be nice for the aluminum series.
Quote:
Congratulations, you just created a solid rear axle. Prepare for snap oversteer. Not to disrespect your effort but this mod imo is only good for short and tight auto-x courses where you need the rear to turn. Otherwise it is dangerous to anyone that isn't prepared for the rear end to step out in a hard turn after lifting the throttle. Like on an on/off ramp to the freeway, which is where I test my handling mods. Just be careful
No, I don't think so.
With the heim joints being the hinge points of the bar, it'll be like it doesn't exist.
But in hard cornering when the trailing arms are flexing in, can produce unwanted toe in which the tiebar will aleviate.
It's been pretty much proven to work for this and either of my two installation points will have enough rotation on the heims to keep the rear arms from becoming a solid bar.
The second version of the tiebar should be the best use of the tiebar and how it's going to work.
Again, opinions welcome and Aaron, if you can make that kit for a fair price, that would welcome.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
We don't currently stock the PM6-7. I can give you a better rodend in our XM series.
XMR/XML6-7-$11.63-chromoly
LXMR/LXML6-7-$8.00-mild steel
6837-44-$11.92-alum
This is what rodendsupply.com gave me for a price quote.
So, until further notice, I'll be ordering this on the coming weekend.
Aaron from TurboTechRacing.com has replied to the JBO thread I have about this and is thinking about making a kit, similar to this.
We'll see how that turns out.
Guesstimate price for shipping and all of the above to make a complete tiebar, about 50-60 bucks.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
The trailing arm doesn't just flex in. That is why it is called semi-independent, each wheel will flex up and down slightly. You eliminate that ability with the tie bar. Hence solid axle. The heim joints do nothing more than replace a squishy bushing and add rigidity i.e. response to chassis inputs. Since the tie bar can't stretch the whole rear assembly acts as one. This is useful in auto-x but on the street the rear end will skip around in corners that are less than glass smooth.
jpo96sungt wrote:The trailing arm doesn't just flex in. That is why it is called semi-independent, each wheel will flex up and down slightly. You eliminate that ability with the tie bar. Hence solid axle. The heim joints do nothing more than replace a squishy bushing and add rigidity i.e. response to chassis inputs. Since the tie bar can't stretch the whole rear assembly acts as one. This is useful in auto-x but on the street the rear end will skip around in corners that are less than glass smooth.
Umm.... I don't think you know what you're talking about. The reason there is heims on the ends is to
allow independent flex. Adding a tie bar like this doesn't make it a solid axle.
blu- did you consider triangulating it to the center beam? Thats how mine is done. No lack of clearance and it works the same. (ignore all the rust and gangly springs, this was a mock install to make sure it fit, I've since refinished it all) Or is this not possible on the 3rd gen axle?
James, awesome setup you got there.
I see you love to tinker with cars like I do and it shows.
Did you fabricate the ends for your links on the trailing arms or where they there already?
Also, the centerpoint of the links on the beam, did you fab that up as well?
If so, very nice work and wish I had a welder to do some of the work I'd like to do.
By income tax time, I'll have my Lincoln welder I've been wanting and learn how to use it.
I'm still awaiting word from rodendsupply on the total for my order so I can get this purchased and installed once it arrives.
Then I'll know if all of the measurements were correct for this install.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
I am no suspension expert, but I do know a thing or two about geometry. James, your photo shows two triangles created by the tie rods. Now, A(sq) + B(sq) = C(sq) correct? A & B are the axle and C is the tie rod. When the axle flexes( A + B) then C must flex. The tie rod doesn't flex, it pivots. But none of the pivot points are parallel to the tie rod. They are on the axle. Same for the 3rd gen J-Body. In both cases the tie rod is resisting the inward push of the wheel and that is all. It cannot articulate in the designs presented here. Again, there is a use for this set up but mainly for getting the car to rotate. If that is what you need then fine. I just prefer a more stable rear end.
I would be more interested in James' triangulated setup than a straight bar. It can probably be adapted to the 3rd gen rear axle, but I woud rather weld it to the axle and trailing arm than bolt it in
Jason
99 Z24 Supercharged
157hp/171tq - NA
LD9 for Life
Misnblu wrote:James, awesome setup you got there.
I see you love to tinker with cars like I do and it shows.
Did you fabricate the ends for your links on the trailing arms or where they there already?
Also, the centerpoint of the links on the beam, did you fab that up as well?
This was originally a Mantacrap brace. They had designed it to bolt on using the lower shock bolt and the sway bar clamps in the center. The only problem was that they had neglected to include any hardware with it, so I was kind of forced towork it out on my own. Their brackets were good, just your basic shock mounting tabs for all three pick up points. I just welded them to the axle instead of bolting them on. It could have easily been whipped up using stock car parts, but at the time, I didn't have any fab equipment. I've since replaced all the hardware with stainless pieces.
jpo96sungt wrote:I am no suspension expert, but I do know a thing or two about geometry. James, your photo shows two triangles created by the tie rods. Now, A(sq) + B(sq) = C(sq) correct? A & B are the axle and C is the tie rod. When the axle flexes( A + B) then C must flex. The tie rod doesn't flex, it pivots. But none of the pivot points are parallel to the tie rod. They are on the axle. Same for the 3rd gen J-Body. In both cases the tie rod is resisting the inward push of the wheel and that is all. It cannot articulate in the designs presented here. Again, there is a use for this set up but mainly for getting the car to rotate. If that is what you need then fine. I just prefer a more stable rear end.
The purpose of the rods is to keep the arms of the axle parrallel to each other, and perpindicular to the axle pivot point on the unibody. You're correct in stating that the rod won't flex, its not supposed to. Its supposed to maintain the geometry between the arms and beam. I think you have a hang up about how heim joints work. They are designed to pivot about 20 degrees in each direction (rotation would be where the rod rotates around the attachment bolt, pivot is perpindicular movement to the bolt). So, even if the attachment points of the end of the bar are not parrellel with the axle beam or even each other, they still have 40 degrees of misalignment allowed. A trailing beam axle will never see 15 degrees of twist at one end, let alone 20 or even 40, so no matter where the heim joint is, it will always have more pivot allowance (as long as the attachment bolts are all parrellel to each other, it doesn't really matter if they are perpindicular to the axle though).
Now, you are also correct in stating that as the beam twists (side B pivots around side A), that the rod (side C) will have to change length. But, the only way this would happen is if the ends of the rod were not allowed to pivot. They can with the heim joints (up to a total of about 40 degrees off the Z plane, both positive and negative, 20 at each end of the rod). Anything past the 40 degrees, it would bind, and then the arm would flex towards the centerline of the vehicle. But since the axle will never twist that far, the rods will never bind. (all the above is assuming a 3D object, not a 2D, in which case no lengths would ever change)
I'm not sure if I just re-explained something you already knew or not, or if you even understood what I was talking about, since now that I read it back to myself, it sounds pretty confusing.
jpo96sungt wrote:I just prefer a more stable rear end.
I've been running a rear tie bar for at least three years now and don't have any problems with snap oversteer like you are saying. It seems you don't understand how a heim joint works.
I've had my tierod (now off of the car with the Eibach setup) on the 'blu for over 6 years and never an issue either.
With my plans for the car, I'll need this setup so am implementing it as we speak.
Like Vanquisher, I'll be doing autoxross, track days, and drag racing with the car once it's all said and done.
James, again, very nice work.
And really, whether it's across the axle or setup in a triangulated configuration, it would still perform the same.
James' setup is sweet and very unique. It's the first time I've ever seen this and do like it.
Oh and thanks James for the explanation. You said it better than I could have.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
Zach, this is a quote from you on this topic from a post Event made:
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=3&i=114529&t=88368&p=2
"My car was much more likely to lift that inside wheel with the tie bar on than it was with it off. I may be wrong, but I see the tie bar as being a way to adding oversteer to the car without affecting body roll. And we all know that car that oversteers looses traction FIRST in the rear."
Now, after visualizing what James has explained, I can see the usefulness of the bar when installed properly. It should be installed like in the 1st photos to allow the bearing to pivot up and down. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks for the clarification James. Now I am closer to being an expert than I was before.
I just read the link you posted, heres some more to ponder- This mod will help with understeer, but it won't create snap oversteer on its own. By reducing the amount of toe out in the rear, you effectively decrease understeer (since a tire going in a straight line has less drag than a tire sliding sideways). The only real way I can see this inducing snap oversteer is if you're running some weird tire pressures (either too high or too low depending on the type of tire and size). So, its not really inducing oversteer, just reducing understeer. Of course, reducing one will increase the other, but since you're starting with understeer, you would have to reduce it to be neutral before you could add oversteer.
Good luck with the project.
They stopped carrying the PM-6 line for a while now.
But Id like the K or triangle set up for our cars as well.
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
An update on the tiebar.
I ordered today and here is what I ordered from them.
1 each XMR6-7 right hand 3/8" hole w/ 7/16" thread chromoly heim joint.
1 each XML6-7 left hand 3/8" hole w/ 7/16" thread chromoly heim joint.
1 each SJNR07 right hand thread chromoly jam nut
1 each SJNL07 left hand thread chromoly jam nut.
1-2 weeks in the shipping out. They didn't have the bar in stock with that 44inch size so they decided ship in about 1-2 weeks.
Less than $50.00 bucks w/ shipping & handling included.
Once I get the item in, will polish the aluminum, install it with a how-to on this, and hope all of the measurements will be correct.
If so, this should be a good mod for those wanting a little more to their suspensions.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
once you have it bolted it and all is well I'm gonna steal your design
I've been planing on a rear tie bar for a while now but honestly I've been to lazy to crawl under the car and do the leg work for measurements and what not.
good work
James Cahill wrote:jpo96sungt wrote:The trailing arm doesn't just flex in. That is why it is called semi-independent, each wheel will flex up and down slightly. You eliminate that ability with the tie bar. Hence solid axle. The heim joints do nothing more than replace a squishy bushing and add rigidity i.e. response to chassis inputs. Since the tie bar can't stretch the whole rear assembly acts as one. This is useful in auto-x but on the street the rear end will skip around in corners that are less than glass smooth.
Umm.... I don't think you know what you're talking about. The reason there is heims on the ends is to allow independent flex. Adding a tie bar like this doesn't make it a solid axle.
blu- did you consider triangulating it to the center beam? Thats how mine is done. No lack of clearance and it works the same. (ignore all the rust and gangly springs, this was a mock install to make sure it fit, I've since refinished it all) Or is this not possible on the 3rd gen axle?
Thats the same idea I had a long time ago.....shucks.....I should have done it!!!
Oh, I forgot the rod with this setup.
1 each XMR6-7 right hand 3/8" hole w/ 7/16" thread chromoly heim joint.
1 each XML6-7 left hand 3/8" hole w/ 7/16" thread chromoly heim joint.
1 each SJNR07 right hand thread chromoly jam nut
1 each SJNL07 left hand thread chromoly jam nut.
1 each 6837-44 aluminum rod for the heim joints.
That is the complete list.
I'll let everyone know how it all fits once installed.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
Update on the tiebar.
First, here's a pic of what I received in the mail.
Here is the sealed heim joint using chromoly material and self lubricating heims.
The bar I received is measured at 44 inches which is what I'd ordered.
This turned out to be just a bit long so decided to cut off about 3/8 of an inch on both sides of the rod with a hacksaw. I then tapered off the end with a file to give it a halfway good look and filed it relatively smooth.
This worked out perfectly and everything else fit perfect.
I didn't realize when I measured all of this that the car was on stands.
When the car was down on the ground and I fit the bar, the exhaust got in the way.
So, I was relegated to using the first installation plan to do this bar.
The first thing I did was drill a hole in the bottom of the trailing arm, making sure that the hole was at the direct bottom of the arm and not parallel with the larger hole that is from the factory.
Again, make sure that you center the hole and that it's DIRECTLY on the bottom of the tube.
I used a 3/16 starter hole before I finished with a 3/8 inch bit for the 3/8 inch stainless hardware.
Here is a picture of the bar installed on the drivers side of the car.
I used another nut to go between the tiebar and the trailing arm to help keep the tiebar away from the exhaust.
This may be removed once I take it for a test drive and see how close it is or isn't to hitting the exhaust.
Here is the finished product on the car and complete.
It looks great.
Also, this picture shows you how close the bar is to the exhaust but shouldn't hit it if all goes well.
A test drive will be had in the next few days to see how things go with the setup.
The finished setup and how good it looks.
Here is a complete list of what went into this setup.
Thank you RodEndSupply.com for the great products that you sell.
I'll most assuredly will be doing more business with them and will soon be working on custom tie rods using sherical ends from RodEndSupply.
1 each XML6-7 (3/8 x 7/16 M LH 4130 NFM left hand Heim $11.63
1 each XMR6-7 (3/8 x 7/16 M RH 4130 NFM right hand Heim $11.63
1 each SJNR07 7/16 RH Steel Jamnut .46 cents
1 each SJNL07 7/16 LH Steel Jamnut .46 cents
1 each 6837-44 7/8 x 7/16 x 44 inch Alum. Rad Rod $12.92
Total cost including shipping ------- $46.56
Driving and a full road review will be given once I get the car on the road.
Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!
