Has anyone devised a way to get an ecotec engine into a 2nd gen?? it seems like ina few years when the aftermarket starts to rise for these engines that they will be far superior to any engine from the 90s.

Custom mounts, swap wiring harness, maybe change the tranny, I don't know if the old trannies will bolt up to the new motor, if it's an auto you'll have to change the tranny anyway because 3rd gens have a four speed instead of a three. You'll also need to use the eco's computer and have it modified so it doesn't act up because of all the extra crap that 3rd gens have like alarms etc. You'll have to do a full OBD-II swap, and I'm pretty sure your gauges won't work anymore, so you'll have to change those.

It's a lot of time and a whole lot of money, depends how much you want to invest in your 2nd gen. I've thought of doing this swap myself if I can get the cash. It's best if you have a beater to drive around in, because I doubt that this would be a weekend job.

sure just find a wrecked ecotec car and start swapping.. you'll need to custom mount it in of course. Not much sense in it right now considering the 3400 bolts in and will stomp the hell out of an ecotec.

3400 will only bolt in if he already has a V6.

Wraith . wrote:3400 will only bolt in if he already has a V6.

The body mounts are all the same.... if he doesnt have a v6 already just means swapping the wiring and ecu instead of just engine/trans. Anyway you look at it, 3400 is cheaper, easier, and more performance.

bump



Originality and Creativity surpasses Popularity

Well, this oughta rustle a few feathers. Looking at both power to weight ratio and hp per cubic inch displacement, Eco has the advantage. And since front wheel drivers are notoriously front heavy, any power adder that doesn't detract from handling is a plus. While the 60 deg v6 does make more torque in NA form, in a traction limited vehicle low rpm torque is the enemy of acceleration. 3400 performance parts are less common than Eco performance parts, and imo the scales will tip even more toward the Eco over time. Eco engines are currently available in this area with between 3 and 30 thousand miles for around $500. 3400 engines are only slightly cheaper and are generally in the 70k mile and up category. The 3400 will "stomp" the Eco? I don't think so. To put it another way, if the 3400 were the be-all, end-all answer, then why is GM not fielding a 700+hp 3400 race engine?

I spent a little time looking at wiring info & etc to use the Ecotec in a 2nd gen car. The first thing to consider is that if you learn to do your own tuning you can save a bunch of $$ on this swap. A computer is a computer, and the 2nd gen v6 (or turbo Sunbird) ecm doesn't care whether or not it's controlling a 502 ci V8 or a 3 cylinder Geo. But you have to be able to make changes to the calibration to move it to a different engine. I'd use one of those 2 ecm's to control an Eco if I did this swap.

Depending on the year of the engine, the ignition module would need to be changed to something compatible with the OBDI ecm. It looks fairly easy... the early 2.0 Saturn ignition module looks like it will do the job quite well. And actually, I think the the module from a 2.2 or 2.0 OHV would also work, it just wouldn't look as good.

The Eco engine has a different trans bolt pattern according to various sources on the 'net. I've tried to find some clear pictures showing the difference, but no luck so far. The auto trans used with the J car Eco is electronically controlled, but the OBDI ecms I mentioned above can't do that. So the easiest choice is to install a manual transmission with the Eco. Other options may exist... look at the Saturn auto trans or check bellhousing compatibility with other engine families used in GM cars. Unless somethign definitive can be found on the web, a trip to the junkyard may be required to sit and look at various trans bellhousings.

Motor mounts, exhaust, intake plumbing, radiator and/ or hoses would all need to be worked out, but these issues are common to almost any engine swap that involves in any project do the most work and face the most criticism, while the people who stay back to watch get to armchair QB with "coulda, woulda, shoulda" suggestions. I'd love to do the Eco + 2nd gen marriage, and I may one day. Right now I've got enough projects to last a lifetime, but that's no reason to start another. But if you seriously want to do it, I'll give you a definite "go for it."

-->Slow

I have to say I agree with Slow on this. I have been giving this some thought. I have an 86 convertible and would love to do the swap. Physical engine mounting seems to be the biggest concern, which worries me because of the problem of having to make custom mounts and ensure that the engine is sitting geometrically correct. In addition, it looks like you would need to relocate the radiator also. On the positive note, third gens came with 2200's. People have already swapped from 2200's to eco's in the third gen. So I am guessing that by using the eco's mounts you may only need to fabricate the right rear tranny mount.

But all things considered, I bet the first person to suggest swapping in the 3400 as opposed to building a 3.1 was considered foolish.

I have went over this swap idea in my head for 2 years now, and i have several reasons why i say a 3400 swap is a much better choice. I guess i will explain myself more.

Yes a couple of people have swapped ecotec setups into their nonecotec 3rd gens.
3rd gens used a completly different mounting system on the 2.2 engines than the 2nd gens did. Any knowledge gained from swapping ecotec into a 3rd gen does not apply to a 2nd gen. It will all be custom. Yes of course i agree with slow, the ecotec is an awesome engine and a more modern design than the old pushrod based motors. When i say a 3400 will stomp an ecotec, im talking about taking a stock 3400 and a stock 2.2 ecotec and comparing them. Yes of COURSE i could mod the ecotec to have more power than the 3400 (turbo/supercharge /nitrous) but guess what? I could do all of the same power adders to a 3400! When speaking N/A power this is a simple issue of Displacement. And weight is not a concern for me, a complete 3400 engine with all accessories attached weighs a little more than 400 lbs. I have no idea of the ecotec's weight but im sure its less, but not by a whole lot. This is pretty easy to infer from peoples 1/4 mile times and car weights.
Using an ODB1 ecu to run the ecotec is very possible. you need to consider that you'll have to come up with a new ignition system for the ecotec. You'll most likely have to use a GM DIS system off of a 2.2 and convert the ecotec to use plug wires instead of coil on plug. Then comes the issue of transmission, but that isnt much of an issue, just get a 5 speed trans out of a 3rd gen and then make up the custom mounting to install it in the car (which should be no problem since you've already made the custom mounting for the engine itself). you should be able to use the same axels between the 3rd and 2nd gen.
Yes its very possible, but at this time i would personally never attempt it for these reasons:

---------------- Cost ----------------------------
Ecotec motors/trans cost a lot more than the current 3400 and a transmission which you already have. They are also not as easy to find.

vs 3400:
For the cost of an ecotec motor, transmission, axels, material to make mounts, and Wiring ecu or alternatively software to program the ODB1 computer, one could have easily bought a 3400 engine, had a custom made camshaft for it, had head work, bought a transmission and rebuild it if neccesary, and make up a set of tubular headers for the motor.

-------Time------
Installing this setup is going to require several days if not weeks. You are going to need to put the motor in the car along with the trans and axels, measure everything up and get it aligned perfectly. Then you are going to need to design and create all of the mounting locations on the body for the engine and transmission support. Since ecotec engines generally mount at the top and bottom and not at the front and rear like 2nd gens this is no small task, Have a look at the 3800 swaps in 2nd gens.
Don't forget about the little things like, Throttle cable, Radiator hoses, Radiator, Fuel lines, and Heater lines! If you want to keep AC in your car, Best of luck to you!

vs 3400:
This swap is not new, it has done at least 50 times now, maybe more. The only custom pieces needed is the front motor mount to engine bracket and a new exhaust downpipe. There are currently at least 2 companies selling this mount premade. If you have a welder and some metal, its not hard to fabricate, set the motor in the car, boltup all the other mounts, check it for level, and just make the front bracket to attach the front mount.
Exhaust downpipe should be handled by any exhaust shop.
The swap has been done by many people in one weekend, and i think with good planning and parts in hand, the swap could be done in 1 day.
Throttle cable out of a 3100 beretta is a direct swap into the 2nd gen J and works perfectly.

---------------- Electrical--------------
You have two choices. Use the wiring and ecu from a 3rd gen with the same trans as you plan on using. You'll need to figure out how to delete the ABS, traction control, and Airbag code from the Ecu.. Don't forget about ODB2 using stricter emissions so you will also have to figure out how to remove this or use a 2nd O2 sensor simulator. If you want to keep your cars stock gauge cluster.. Forget about it, you'll have to find a way to mount up the 3rd gen's gauges in the car.
2nd choice: Use an ODB1 ecu: This is probably the route to go, programming these ecu's is well documented and pretty easy. Don't forget this will require changing the ecotecs ignition system. I'm not sure of how the ecotec engine sends timing info to the ECU but of course the ecu could be calibrated to whatever it uses.

vs 3400:
You need to pull the wires out of the loom that run to the DIS system because the coil packs are in a different location on this motor than on the 2.8/3.1. You'll need to locate a 3 wire temp sensor and connector out of a 2.2 4cyl motor as the 3400 has only 1 temp sensor location where the 2.8 / 3.1 had two.


----- My opinion ----
Basically it all boils down to Performance vs. Cost/Time for me. If someone just gave me a wrecked ecotec 3rd gen cav for free, then i would definately do it!!! I have a nice 89Z24 just waiting for a new heart in the backyard! But for my money and time, you just can't beat a 3400 swap in these vehicles. A bone stock 3400 using a bone stock exhuast system and stock 3.1 ecu code ran a 14.9 its first time on the track (stock wheels and tires also). Spend a little time on the motor, custom cam grind, nice exhaust, and take the time to reprogram the 3.1 ecu code for the larger displacement engine so it doesnt lean out in high rpms, i would not be surprised if you were running very close to the 13s.

Now if you consider that someone is doing a 3400 swap on a 4 cylinder, it's a little more complicated than that. I've been told the mounting points are the same, but we have to find not only a 3400 at a decent price (which is impossible around here, and buying a brand new 3400 cost as much if not more as buying a brand new ecotec), then we have to find the computer from a 3.1, swap it's harness in as well, THEN proceed with the swap. I'm not saying the eco's any easier, but a 3400 swap isn't as easy as all you people with decent junkyards think it is for someone like me... I have no junkyards, I have a 2.2 auto, so I'd have to find a tranny as well, no competent shops around here, so I couldn't have the ECU changed locally, and no engine hoist... This would be a find a big tree and a couple of friends kind of engine swap.

Bottom line: 3400 isn't exactly the saving grace all you people think it is. For the same ammount of money and time I could swap in an eco, have a better aftermarket, and get better mileage.

Wraith . wrote:Now if you consider that someone is doing a 3400 swap on a 4 cylinder, it's a little more complicated than that. I've been told the mounting points are the same, but we have to find not only a 3400 at a decent price (which is impossible around here, and buying a brand new 3400 cost as much if not more as buying a brand new ecotec), then we have to find the computer from a 3.1, swap it's harness in as well, THEN proceed with the swap. I'm not saying the eco's any easier, but a 3400 swap isn't as easy as all you people with decent junkyards think it is for someone like me... I have no junkyards, I have a 2.2 auto, so I'd have to find a tranny as well, no competent shops around here, so I couldn't have the ECU changed locally, and no engine hoist... This would be a find a big tree and a couple of friends kind of engine swap.

Bottom line: 3400 isn't exactly the saving grace all you people think it is. For the same ammount of money and time I could swap in an eco, have a better aftermarket, and get better mileage.

Why don't you learn before you speak?? There is no difference in a 4 cyl car and 6 cyl car body wise. A 6cyl harness and ecu will mount right into your car with no modding. A 6cyl motor will mount into your car just like it will a car that came with a 6cyl. Guess what? 1st and 2nd gen Jbodies NEVER came with with ecotec. This is why its so much harder. I know you just feel like posting in every thread you can find, but take it somewhere else buddy.

I'm not even going to respond to the flaming, no need to start anything.

But if I recall, my initial post about what's required for an ecotech swap was all correct was it not? And my point is, a 2.2 ECM will NOT run a V6, not very well at least. The TBI computer might be able to run it, but you'd have to convert the V6 to TBI as well, and then it still wouldn't be able to deliver fuel properly.

Wraith . wrote:I'm not even going to respond to the flaming, no need to start anything.

But if I recall, my initial post about what's required for an ecotech swap was all correct was it not? And my point is, a 2.2 ECM will NOT run a V6, not very well at least. The TBI computer might be able to run it, but you'd have to convert the V6 to TBI as well, and then it still wouldn't be able to deliver fuel properly.

no a 2.2 ecm wont run the v6, but you can bolt a v6 ecm right in there.. i cant see why don't understand that. And as far as the transmission goes, The transmission on your 2.2 is the same 3 speed that is used on the V6s. Most people swap to 5 speeds becasue of greater performance and lighter weight.

i think brent is hiding from you guys


"I live my life a quarter mile at a time..." "for those ten seconds or less I'm free"