I'm getting my car back today, but without the alignment. The tie rods (inner & outer) are so rusted (or something like that) the mechanic couldn't get them to move at all.
My alignment is off by just over 1 degree. I guess it would cost about $400 to get new tie rods installed.
Other than tire wear and the fact that I'll have to think about the alignment when I'm driving, would I risk breaking something? I should have the money later this year, but am wondering what long-term problem I might cause by driving it as is.
My best guess is simply excessive, uneven tire wear.
Wayne Schiff wrote:I'm getting my car back today, but without the alignment. The tie rods (inner & outer) are so rusted (or something like that) the mechanic couldn't get them to move at all.
My alignment is off by just over 1 degree. I guess it would cost about $400 to get new tie rods installed.
Other than tire wear and the fact that I'll have to think about the alignment when I'm driving, would I risk breaking something? I should have the money later this year, but am wondering what long-term problem I might cause by driving it as is.
My best guess is simply excessive, uneven tire wear.
Tie rods is something you don't want to put off for too long. Recently my dad drove on his for 6+months got so bad a few weeks ago he couldn't go above 40mph due to all the shaking, I ended up giving him the money to get it fixed. You can get it done for cheaper than $400. My guess is they quoted you on most expensive parts which is the Moog Tie-rods @ Advance & Oreilly's. @ Advance you could get Driveworks Inner and Outer tie-rods for $106 not including taxes for an '87 Skyhawk, @ Autozone just $10 more for Duralast brand.
Spike--I didn't get a quote, but found a great online site for estimating labor and parts for a given job. While not an exact number, that $400 won't be too far off for having the job done, including parts.
I'll have to ask when I pick it up tonight to be sure, but I believe there is nothing wrong with the tie rods themselves, but due to rusting issues, there isn't a way to adjust the existing ones.
You ever see what happens when one breaks? It is not pretty. You can do the outside ones yourself for like $20 a side. My grease bags were shot and I did mine and then had it aligned.
Josh is making a yard run - perhaps he can pick you up the inner & outer as a unit on the a Skyhawk he is visiting at a second yard. The inner rod is usually good on these models, and who knows...the outer might have some life left in it. As long as you can that lock nut to break loose on the outer rod you are good to go for an alignment. Wouldn't be the first time personally I've used a second hand tie rod during my days! Any port in a storm as the old saying goes!
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Wayne from what you posted, I do not get the impression that your tie rod ends are bad. Were you told they were bad? I think you are asking if the tie rod ends or something else will go bad from driving from the current misalignment? I am assuming that only the alignment is off from what you wrote. As I posted on another thread to you, you can set the toe in yourself with a tape measure and accurate measurements. Its easy to do, just do a you tube search and watch a couple of videos and do a google search and research the topic until you understand where and how to make the measurements. Basically you the measure the distance across the car from side to side at the front of the tire, then you measure the same distance across the car at the rear of the tire, the same height up from the ground. The difference of the two measurements should 0 - 1/16 or 1/8" if you prefer so the wheels point inward at the front, rather than point outward. Setting the tires to point inward a smidge, allows the car to try and straighten itself when you let go of the steering wheel and go straighter, hence less wondering from side to side.
I interpret what your mechanic was having difficulty doing was turning the tie rod adjuster. The tie rod adjuster is like a double ended bolt which is threaded in opposite directions on the ends. One end screws into the rack side of the tie rod tube link and the other end screws into your tie rod end. By having opposite threads, when the nut in the center is turned, the tie rod end is either pushed away from the center of the car or if turned the other direction the tie rod is pulled into toward the center line of the car. This allows the mechanic to adjust the toe. Before that adjuster can be moved, the locking bolts on tie rod end must be loosen which pinch the adjuster tight, preventing it from turning. From the sounds of it, it seems all you have to do is take the tie rod loose from the steering arm, loosen the tie rod adjuster pinch bolts. I use a chisel or screw driver to wedge into that pinch bolt clamp to open it wide so it can slid out of the way. I recommend spraying the threads of the adjuster and threads in the slots for a few days ahead of time. With the pinch clamps loosened, now you can take whatever measures needed to spin the tie rod off the adjuster. I think that the mechanic could not easily budge the adjuster which is what you were told as the reason he could not align the car. Be sure to count the number of turns it takes to remove the tie rod end so when one is put back on, it will get you close to the original alignment. I would replace both outer tie rod ends with new ones if it were me. I only paid $15 a piece from ebay which I think $30 is a cheap maintenance item. I would not recommend using a junk yard part since it will more than likely be worn too, but that's just me. I do however agree with Orlen that the inner tie rod ends rarely go bad, so unless the mechanic told you they are bad, I would not worry about them. If I had the tie rod ends off, I would replace them regardless if they seemed good or not, just to maintenance the item.
With the outer tie rod end removed, now you can use a deep well socket or wrench to snap loose the adjuster from the inner tie rod sleeve. With a deep well socket and extensions to the get the ratchet out past the fender, you can use a long pipe over the ratchet handle to increase your leverage ratio and snap the adjuster free. Look at the thread pitch to be sure to turn the adjuster the correct direction to loosen it. When it is loose, remove it entirely. Wire brush the adjuster threads, and clean the inner tie rod tube as best possible. Coat the adjuster threads with antiseize or grease if in a pinch to keep the adjuster from rusting fast later in the future. Reassemble the side with the new tie rod end. The pinch bolt clamps keep the adjuster from moving which is why I coat the threads with antiseize. I also smear grease over the slot in the tie rod end and inner tie rod end sleeve to keep dirt and water from seeping into the those areas and threads which rusted the adjusters tight in the first place.
This job is not hard, just time consuming and probably something your mechanic did not want to do without your approval due to the increase in time on task, hence extra charge for labor. I had to do the same procedures to both my Sunbird and Z24 when I replaced the tie rods and ball joints. I replaced the ball joints because they are cheap and I wanted as much of the steering and suspension wear parts to be replaced so the steering was tight. Like you, I also replaced the front struts and rear shocks. Replacing the lower ball joints is not hard, just long,tedious and finicky because you have to drill out the factory rivets. That requires several different drill bit sizes and quality bits or they dull easily. I was constantly resharpening mine when I did that task. Fortunately, I have a drill doctor which makes sharpening drill bits a breeze.
So take some time and do the research. The jobs are not over your head if you can replace front struts. Other than potentially needing a torch to heat the tie rod sleeves to snap the adjusters free in extreme cases, this job typically requires a big hammer, basic hand tools and long pipe. I think you can do the repair and replace the tie rods for less than 1/8th of your projected estimate, unless you have a real exception to the norm, like I had with my door hinge pins being rusted tight in the hinge.
Hope that helps and best of luck on your resolution
Wayne you probably had the same thing happen that I had. My adjuster sleeves were seized and I rounded off one while I was doing my alignment. Moog makes one that has a fluted design to help prevent that. I replaced mine and brushed the threads with antisieze. I literally had to remove the whole assembly and heat it with a torch to separate it.
I would liquid wrench them every day and let that soak into the threads.I plan on new tie rods for mine granted I am in a drier climate that helps a lot for rust.I bet a lot of people try to untighten them the standard way not realizing there making it tighter.I know these along with most rides they loosen clockwise versus counter.Anyway I would do this yourself seriously.If unsure watch some videos on youtube if need be and it will build up your know how and confidence and learn it.That is how I have picked up on fixing some things I have not done.Case and point is like cv joints not bad to do,just having the proper tools makes the job easier plus a air compressor to break loose the axle nut on some jobs.Done for now kinda worn down the humidity kicked me good today doing yard work.
OK, I spoke with the mechanic to get a better understanding of what was wrong. When I posted this, I had just got off the phone with him and maybe my words in the post weren't the best to use.
It is perfectly safe to drive, it won't just break and fall apart while I'm driving. If it was a rust issue, yeah, I wouldn't be considering driving.
Bill--you've got it right, nothing wrong with the tie rods themselves, they guy was just unable to do an adjustment as they were seized in place. He tried heating it and whatever else he could do but couldn't make any adjustments.
Ron--yeah, that's pretty much my plan, spray them often, maybe bang on them a little bit, see if I can get them to move.
Orlen--I think the parts all new and pretty are under $100, so the boneyard route just doesn't seem worth it to me for this one.
So that just leaves my main question:
If I drive with the alignment off by about 1.? degrees, will I hurt anything more than my tire wear?
Oh yeah, also got some really bad news.
I went to a body shop near my house since I put a new hood on the car and couldn't get it to latch. While there he looked at my quarter panels and told me they were way worse than I thought.
This guy does beautiful work and custom rods, you can see he takes real pride in his work and never wants to do anything half-assed because it would be his reputation.
He said to do the job on my q-panels "right" would be about $2000; but to basically fix my rusting issues and make it look decent would be about $1000.
So unless things work out for me on Million Second Quiz, no nice paint job this year for the Hawk.
It depends where that 1 degree is on how fast the tires will wear. Toe will wear much faster than camber if its only 1 degree due to the fact that your tires are either pointed in or out. Camber is how far the wheel leans in or out and on most vehicles .50 degrees split between both sides is where you want it for the best tire wear.
Just as a heads up - burn out a couple of tires and you can be equaling the amount of the parts to begin with. I replaced a tie rod end on the step son car a few weeks ago and told him to get an alignment. The replacement wasn't the same length as the original so counting the number of turns to remove the original was useless. 3 weeks later, no alignment and he has toasted the tire. While not the same price as 17 -18 " low profiles of course - even the price of a 13" is considerable since the Obama Admin applied teriffs to tire imports. Add that finding used 13's these days requires a bit of luck.....especially some that aren't worn out or dry rotten.
2k for Q-Panels is sickening. Granted that would put you back to like new condition - but my God the average working people just don't have that kind of money to toss away. Add to it a really good paint job and you are probably into the 4k range. That is the point of no return as you can go to a Buy-Here Pay-Here and pick out a nice looking set of wheels with some life left in it for that kind of money and make monthly payments to boot.....unlike the Body Shop.
Hard decisions and tough choices seem to be in your draw my friend. Guess this little rare J is gonna test your loyalty to the breed. Like myself you may wind up learning to do a lot of things yourself. While I am constantly see that my work isn't perfect.....well I guess neither am I - so in the end they are a reflection of my strengths and weaknesses. Still I am not Co-Dependent of the Garage the Body Shop the Local Car Dealer or the Bank - and that is something to smile about! I hope you can keep plugging along and keep you J from the Chinese!
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Orlen Brown wrote:2k for Q-Panels is sickening. Granted that would put you back to like new condition - but my God the average working people just don't have that kind of money to toss away. Add to it a really good paint job and you are probably into the 4k range. That is the point of no return as you can go to a Buy-Here Pay-Here and pick out a nice looking set of wheels with some life left in it for that kind of money and make monthly payments to boot.....unlike the Body Shop.
Yeah body work isn't cheap unless you're lucky enough to come across a little Mom & Pop shop that does decent work, I can just imagine how much new rockers are going to cost for my sedan
. I know of this one that is now just a 'Mom' shop, the guy that does the work there is quite good and could be making alot more money elsewhere but he chooses to help her out till she sells the place.
It might be worth going to the local community college and learn welding Wayne & Orlen especially the way costs just keep going up, been thinking about doing it myself too.
Just shop around for body work. If you are looking for a daily driver you might find some one that is just starting out and needs the business. A cheaper paint job may hold you over until you can afford a show quality piant job with full panel replacements.
I will check with another shop or two, but I have a feeling I won't get any better news than I already got.
The guy I went to is a one man operation. When he says $2000 he means it will look showroom beautiful. When he says $1000 he means it will look decent enough, only be primered but not painted, but still done right.
I really doubt I will go elsewhere because this guy is a straight shooter and up front with questions.
I'm OK with this, I don't like it, but will deal with it. It just means my paint job money will be for the quarter panels. I'll be sanding the doors and hood myself in the rust areas and maybe doing a few other small things this fall.
In the spring, I'll try and get that Z-24 bumper and sidepods on, then get a Macco special.
It won't be the nicest, but it won't look bad and I'll be driving around happy.
As for the tie rods, hopefully I'll be able to get them freed up for an alignment.
I now have a transmission leak on my Plymouth, and until I figure out where that leak is coming from and how much fluid I might be losing (I'm hoping it's the dipstick seal, but I doubt I'll be so lucky), I now must drive the misaligned Hawk.
With expenditures like that and a person being adamant about making cars a life long hobby, I absolutely agree with the suggestion of redirecting your money toward investing in the tools and education to expand ones skill set to include rust repair and panel replacement, body work, painting and paint buffing to their existing skills
This way you have the tangible tools to show for your money and skills that will be with you for life, as well as the ability to pass your wisdom onto your grandchildren and other seriously interested folks which is a priceless feeling of gratification. All the reasons I am on this forum and have a Sunbird project to perfect my craft on. Though the end results are not as immediate as paying a shop to do it, the trade off is that the tools and materials can be acquired as one's budget allows which is not the case when a bill presented for payment.
Paint and body work quotes like that really make me aware of how much I underestimate my abilities and take it for granted, especially when mig welding patch panels and shaping body putty and filler is really not that hard at all. While painting is a skillful art, the base coat / clear coat system allows the part time painter the ability to make repairs at each step along the way, as well as level and buff the paint to a smooth surface to yield a better than factory paint job. However I will mention that I have always been walking in the shadow of my father who has instilled in me the "can do" attitude. That guy is 10 times the fabricator I am and a huge inspiration which when being around someone like all your life makes it seem like everyone else should be able to do it too.
Its seriously too bad your not closer Wayne because I would be more than happy to give you lessons you need to do the job yourself.
Doing it myself would be nice, but that's just not an option right now.
I also don't have the space/place to do extensive bodywork.
Maybe someday I'll take that class or find another way to learn, but I also know my limitations sometimes. With this car I have gone much further than I could've dreamed, and in the years to come I'm sure I'll do plenty more.
It sure doesn't help that I live in a dreamworld where I expect a bolt to loosen just because I turn it the correct way.
Just work at your pace Wayne. I have found I have accomplished far more than I ever thought I could have ....when I stopped tying expectations and results to the task. It is simply some time to tinker with what I have and to enjoy the experience. Since I don't have the abilities or resources to restore to original and show quality - I now seek the experiences and add to what I've learned.
Just the other day I had a fellow offer to help me fix the ole Wagon up with a nice spay paint job and Clear Coat - but he doesn't understand I don't want those things. I don't desire to drive my wagon down the road with clear coat blowing in the wind - so why put it on there in the first place? It is just a daily and I have learned so much - first doing the Rattle Can Three Tone Paint Job - and now learning to do sprayless painting. Along the way with all the many , many projects I've enjoyed on the Wagon - I have learned not just about the things I've done on it - but, a bit about the Man that has done them. When the day comes I'm no longer able to do these things - I can look back and appreciate all that I did while I was able to, all that I could do that I was able.
No Regrets - Just Great Memories!! - This is what I really am building.....one project at a time.
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