Modifying the Quad 4 intake manifold to fit a Twincam heads needs the intake flange hacked off and have a Twincam intake flange welded on.... Where or who makes these? O.E.M doesnt...
Oem makes the phenolic adapter to use a ho/lo mani on a 2.4 head. It makes up the difference between the ports and helps with heatsoak from the head
Phenolic Adapters are the way to go... i would never cut and weld a flange on...
The Fontana adapters absorb the most heat soak, and transition the best between the quad 4 mani and the LD9 head, but are really hard to find these days... OEM's adapters are second best...
Mystic02VA (GME Chat) wrote:Phenolic Adapters are the way to go... i would never cut and weld a flange on...
The Fontana adapters absorb the most heat soak, and transition the best between the quad 4 mani and the LD9 head, but are really hard to find these days... OEM's adapters are second best...
And 80 bucks a pop through the website...
besides the ghastly welds hells yea!
I choose the technology built for land speed records... not the technology built to save on emissions and gas mileage.
the thicker the phenolic spacer, the better it resists heat soak... I run the 3'8" fontana adaptor... if you really are worried about thickness, the 2.3-2.4 adaptor OEM makes is super thin, it doesn't resist as much heat soak as the fontana, but still works.
Running a phenolic spacer defeats the purpose of cutting and welding and therefore wastes time and money. And time and money are two of the biggest factors most people have to factor when building an engine...
are the LD9 intake runner ports bigger on the flange than the HO Runners? i also have a ported head, i enlargened the runners on the spacer to match the head, and they still match the HO mani runners on the mani side.
I am on the fence with this at the moment. I have an extrude honed HO intake manifold, that I can either modify the 2.3 flange for the LD9 head or cut the flange off and weld on Fetter's intake flange.
Jason
99 Z24
LG0/LD9 for Life
10 Year Bash Veteren
I am with Chris on this one.
The spacer alone is.....Kinda @!#$ty for viscosity, Boosted whatever, but NA....
OH YA! Just buy a real 2.3 and have the same TQ and 180 HP?
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
why would i want a real 2.3... the highest modified N/A numbers come from the LD9 and the LD2 (which shares a lot from the LD9). And I'm way above 180 now. I dynoed 179 on a stock tune with just the injector constant changed, and on my original exhaust. With the adjustable cam gears, the MSD ignition, the Ron header and 2.5" all the way back, and a completed tune, i should be between 200 - 225 whp...
BTW i think you were looking for the word "Velocity"... i didn't think the spacer had anything to do with the thickness of a liquid, e.g. "viscosity"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, July 19, 2012 3:41 PM
So where would I find a flange for the twincam head yet Q4 intake??? I have 2 phenolics... one free and other for 20 bucks, really useless and expensive huh? Lol guess Mark likes me.
SweetnessGT: there aint @!#$ wrong with the intake!!! Its what Im looking to do and SMOOTH the welds, just like my 2.4 Venom intake, if the LD2 Q4s cant perform
Mystic02VA (GME Chat) wrote:are the LD9 intake runner ports bigger on the flange than the HO Runners?
Still waiting on an answer here...
98grandamld9 wrote:really useless and expensive huh?
I'd hardly say phenolic spacers are useless... One of the reason's GM used a Plastic Intake on the LD9 is due to the fact that plastic doesn't suffer from heat soak, and therefore IATs stay lower entering the head... thick enough phenolic spacers will replicate the condition.
ive heard phenolic spacers only ward of the heat for so long then it just gets heat soaked anyway. that true?
I choose the technology built for land speed records... not the technology built to save on emissions and gas mileage.
well i can drive 3 hours south at varying speeds between 45 - 70. After i get there, i can immediately pop the hood and rest my hand comfortably on the intake mani, where i cannot rest my hand comfortably on the head, cam towers, or IDI cover.
i wonder if there is a way to attach the IAT sensor directly to the manifold and datalog internal Mani air temps. I'm pretty sure temperatures are much cooler on the intake side of the throttle body vs the manifold side, so a traditional IAT sensor in the stock location wouldn't help determine how effective phenolic is (If we, lets say, test two HO mani's one with and one without a 3/8" thick phenolic spacer.)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, July 20, 2012 5:13 PM
Kids still thinking they can do @!#$ better then a company.
Ill stick with my LS7 guys.
cÜz ib spÉlling wrÖn. LOL
On a side note,
Quote:
B) Quad 4 Family (Power Adders)
1. Paul Rocha, 10.84 @ 139
2. Brandon Fetter, 11.412 @ 135.82
3. JR Marks (jmarks82), 11.98 @ 126.11 - LD9 Purebred (Turbo).
4. Karo, 12.051@111.767 (N2O)
5. Jeff Filkins, 12.5 @ 117.57
6. Brian W. (SpeedRacerZ), 12.613 @ 117.86 (Boost)
7. Matt (--Booted Z--), 12.6554 @ 114.61, Automatic Turbo Purebred LD9
8. Levi Sen, 12.688 @ 110.37
9. Jay Van (Qwik2k2z24),12.766@112.14 turbocharged 11psi. 245/50/16 Nitto 555R tires. Stock Clutch Purebred LD9.
10. Darren Herde, 12.967 @ 107.04
11. David Ingram (WHITECAVY), 13.077 @ 109.16, - LD9 Purebred (Turbo).
12. Skilz10179, 13.151 @ 110.78
13. Team GREEN, 13.221 @ 108.94
14. Jbeier (Nitro), 13.303 @ 103.57 (N2O)
15. Taetsch Z-24,13.79@102.45 - (Supercharged)
Strange... With the extensive knowledge that is the JBO...
Guess reading all those books back in the day paid off.
26%...LOL
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
Some things just don't change eh, Chris? Good to see you're still hanging around here and there! This place definitely misses the help and part #'s you gave it.
98GrandamLD9 - you have a venom intake manifold? Well... you're in luck - the flange that is welded to this H.O manifold is in fact a venom flange - which I like because it uses the proper stock gasket (which is why I couldn't over port it and needed a phenolic spacer to do so).
If you feel like hacking up that venom, you can take it to an aluminum welder and have the venom & H.O merged together - then the smoothing is up to you. I didn't go crazy because this manifold has HORRIBLE welds, and I took off over half the meat but didn't want to push it too far - I figured I'd focus more on smoothing the inside for flow rather than the outside for looks. It isn't pretty but the fuel rail and injectors+harness will cover it up anyway.
Good luck with your project!
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
LOL
Function>Form.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
function AND form > form
I choose the technology built for land speed records... not the technology built to save on emissions and gas mileage.
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:Kids still thinking they can do @!#$ better then a company.
eh, it doesn't take much to start a company, and acquiring a business license does not instantly give you genius abilities...
Very nice being in the top 15 in the boost world...
Welcome to N/A Performance on JBO
Quote:
Discussions about performance modifications to j-body automobiles which do not involve any kind of forced induction or nitrous. Topics in any way related to turbo or supercharger should go in the Boost forum, and nitrous topics in the Nitrous Oxide forum.
My last n/a build was in the top 10... my current build, once i get on the dyno again, should put me in the top 3....
Building for N/A is not the same as Building for Boost... so your point is null and void...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, July 21, 2012 4:45 AM
Wheres the top N/A charts.. to hell with the boost. Lol.
Chris, my uncle actually is a welder and have a tig or mig welder in the shop. Just got mu hands on two ld2 intakes. AND a set of Mcmoney cam gears, now time to customize the stock timing cover.
So that's what Olds and Chevy did? Hmm Good to know.
Quote:
Quarter Mile Timeslips:
02:06 PM - 14/Mar/09 - Maryland International Raceway (Budds Creek, MD) (14.498@94.31)
MODIFICATIONS
Engine:
HPTuned by Joe Rutledge of Tuning Concepts
Powder Coated Kandy Red: Block - intake manifold - cam towers - timing chain housing - lower motor mount bracket - MDld9 alt pulley
Powder Coated Black With Prismatic Flake: Oil Pan - Timing Chain Cover
-----------------
BLOCK
-----------------
* .020 Overbore (between 10.5:1 - 11:1) Wiseco Forged Pistons
* Wiseco Rings
* Wiseco Wrist Pins (Rated up to 500 HP)
* Eagle Forged Rods (Balanced)
* Clevite 77 .25mm over Main Berrings
* Clevite 77 .25mm over Rod Berrings
* 2.3 Oil Pump Swap
* Removed Balance Shafts
* Miller Performance Modified Oil Pan
* Lightened and Balanced GM Reground Crankshaft
* Helicoil (to retrofit knock sensor)
* OBX Precision Power Underdrive Crankshaft Pully
* ARP Main Studs
-----------------
HEAD
-----------------
* Fully Ported and Polished
* Decked .020 to raise compression
* Car Customs 1mm Over-sized Stainless Valves
* HO Springs
* Titanium 2.3/2.4 Retainers (made for 2.3 springs & 2.4 valves)
* HO Lifters
* Crane Cams .430 lift 222 duration HO Intake Cam (modified by Miller Performance for the LD9)
* Crane Cams .430 lift 222 duration HO Exhaust Cam
* 2.4 Intake Cam Housing Modified by Miller Performance to accept the bigger lifters and the .430 lift cam
* ARP Head Studs
-----------------
SPEC Stage 3 Six Puck Clutch
SPEC Stage 3 Pressure Plate
SPEC Stage 3 Throwout Bearing
Cometic .030 Head Gasket GM Stock Head Gasket
K&N Airfilter
AC Delco RAPIDFIRE Spark Plugs
XACT Performance Spark Plug Boots
2.3 HO Painted IDI Cover
2.3 HO Intake Manifold
Fontana Phenolic Spacer OEM 2.3-2.4 Adaptive Phenolic Spacer
1995 LO 56mm Throttle-body (and i kept my cruise control) Pre-1995 Quad4 Throttle-body Bored out to 60mm by Mantapart (and i kept my cruise control)
Slotted Throttle Position Sensor Bolts to work with my PCM
RK Sport Lower Dog-bone Motor Mount
RK Sport Upper Motor Mount Insert Turbo Tech Racing Upper Motor Mount
Car Customs Front and Rear Transmission Mounts
MD-LD9 Light Weight Alternator Pully
OBX Pacesetter Style Header
AEM Wideband O2 Sensor
2 1/4" pipe from header to cat
Magnaflow High Flow Catalytic Converter
Seibenick Racing Custom Long-Tube 2.4 Quad Header (ThermoChromed by Precision Powdercoating)
Knockoff 3" Catalytic Converter
QTP 3" Electric Cutout
Atomic 2.5" Custom V-Banded Catback (TheromoChromed by Precision Powdercoating)
Cobalt SS Supercharged (LSJ) Muffler (ThermoChromed by Precision Powdercoating)
Mobil 1 5W30 Synthetic Oil (after 1000 miles)
Pressure Washed Weekly (not a mod - but shows how clean it is)
AEM Cold Air Intake (Modified)
Optima Red Top Battery (relocated at an angle to let intake run straight down)
VS my 95 POS
Quarter Mile Timeslips:
07:37 PM - 01/Oct/08 - GLD (14.681@93.89)
MODIFICATIONS
Engine:
Junkyard 92 LG0
W41 GM Camshafts
Wisco Flat top pistons
RP Rods
TunerCats tuning
Crush bent 2.5" exhaust
"086" head
Seems like a wast of time and money for two tenths...
Ergo my logic:
Use a engine that was made for power from the get go, not a band aid fix for emissions and casting issues from the 90's
That is why I would use a HO intake made from performance from the get go*, with a intake flange made for the engine\head in question is far better then just slapping on some spacer that gives a nice sharp transition.
But anyway its sliced, its still FWD 14 sec junk toy cars that anyone can go down and buy a New NA SS and run the same times.
For horse power its a very simple equation.
It take X fuel with Y air to make Z power.
Be it NA, Supercharged or turbo charged.
SO if your 146 Cubic inch engine is maxed out, IE 100% VE, (130% in some equations. Most Mod performance engines are at 80-85% VE) it will only be around 186-200 (Given a 7K peak power output) See links*
This is all very simple math, If you want to make power with small cubes you need to force more air through it, thus keeping the Air*Fuel to make power equation.
Again, reiterating, A HO intake with a LD9 flange is the way I would do it If I wanted to modify a LD9 for NA or a Turbo.
Links
Tools for those willing to learn VE Calculations
Another
HP calc link
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
You dyno this motor, Chris?
the failure in the first part of your post is that my trackslip is from 2009... My build list, is from 2010 (which is referenced, but for some reason is not included in your quote). That trackslip is from my former build, and the head was the only component reused in the 2010 build...
2009 build list wrote:
Secret Cams
Fully Ported and Polished LD9 Head, Decked .020
Pacesetter Header
HO Intake Mani with spacer
RK Sport lower mount
RK Sport Upper mount insert
Luk Stage 1 Clutch
Stock tune
The motor ran like this for about 2 years until it spun a rod bearing in September 2009. I then purchased my cams and a block from Clyde and begun my current build
I have not ran my car on the track since the 2010 build. I would estimate that I am in the mid to lower 13s at this point in time. I am in the process of installing McMoney's cam gears, getting a CPS pad welded to my intake cam, since the 00-02 PCM goes completely insane without a CPS, causing the engine to rev and hold at 3000 at closed throttle at speeds above 5 MPH (such in case as slowing down for a stop light). I also will be removing the IDI to install MSD coils as well as an MSD DIS 2 HO. I also need to determine the best solution to my "ghost knock" issue due in part to a noisy alum flywheel, and a helicoil to run the 00+ knock sensor in a pre 00 block. After this, I will go back to my tuner for a final tune. Estimated Wheel Horsepower based similar built engines is between 200-225...
Anyway this is argument is pointless... Until someone dynos both conditions on the same engine on the same day on the same dyno with the engine at operating temperature on each pull, we are just spouting theories back and forth. Additionally i would still like to see manifold temps at operating temp under load for both cases.
Your argument: You feel flow is better if the top of the ho mani is immediately blocked by the 2.4 flange to match the head, vs being transitioned in to the head.
My argument: I feel Air temp plays a big roll in performance and allowing the air to stay cooler until the air enters the head and gets sucked in to the chamber.
Until someone produces dyno pulls... this is about as far as it is going to go...
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Sunday, July 22, 2012 2:16 PM
