Hey Guys,
So I have been looking into new cams for a while now for next season, after the disapointing dyno results and track times the car put down this year.
I am running the Comp Stage 2 N/A cams currently, which put my peak HP at 6225rpm. No good.
Now, I have managed to find a certain european cam manufacture that makes no less than 10 cam grinds for the 2.2 L61 Ecotec. These get as wild as 268* dura. at 0.050" for their most aggressive cam (to compare the Comp Stage 3 N/A: 222* on the intake side, Stage 2 N/A: 216* intake), good news for me.
I contacted them in regards to my application (5200-7800 power band, peak around 7200rpm)and this is what they recomended...
Intake: 253* @ .050, 0.478"
Exhaust: 243* @ .050, 0.458"
I have 3 major concerns:
- WIll my Supertech valve springs take that much lift, I remember on the box it stated coil bind occured at 0.512", so I'll have to dig deeper into this.
- Can that be street driven.
- Where will that ACTUALLY put my peak power.
This is where I come to you guys for help, I am not as seasoned in cam design as I'm sure some of you are, so a bit of open discussion on cams would be nice.
Mainly regarding the streetability of high duration cams and duration increases vs. peak power. I seem to think that increasing the intake duration by 37* would shift my power band higher than the 1000rpm I am looking for. Normally I would just punch this into Desktop Dyno and get my answer, but considering it estimated my peak power with my current set-up to be near 7200rpm I don't trust its results anymore.
The other thing I find interesting, in all the Comp grinds, the exhaust cam has 2* more duration than the intake cam. They are recomending the exhaust have 10* less duration than the intake cam, thoughts on this?
I've looked to other 4-cyl platforms for information, however Honda is really the only engines people are serious into all-motor stuff, and with V-TEC they can have stupid high duration cams, and a stock like idle. Hell the K20 has over 250* dura. @ 0.050" on the big lobe out of the factory....lol
Thoughts, comments, advice, experiance, random cam related banter; all would be appreciated.
Thanks!
In my personal opinion the supertechs will reach coil bind with those cams.
Please read this LONG discusion on them in this post...
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The start of all the crazyness....
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All that should give you more than enough info to help you out.
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Yes, I've read through all those many times...lol
But if you use Supertech's listed installed height, you end up with 0.547" max lift, as MadJack mentioned. To back that up, Voocky who measured the amount of dish in the retainers, remembers it being near 2mm.
If you add the 2mm (0.079") to the factory installed height of 1.279", you end up with 1.358" which is nearly what Supertech lists the installed height as being (1.362").
Apparently my memory is getting weak as I mentioned I remembered the max lift as being 0.512", so perhaps this works out after all, as I will still have a 0.069" tolerance before coil bind.
To double check this tho, I will buy a installed height checker and double check that this math is correct.
Here is a pic of the box my Supertechs came in, stating the installed height is infact at 1.362".
I dunno, now that I am looking at all this again, I am a bit less worried about it...
im only good for the car related banter.
i know its gonna get spendy but have you thought about lightening up ur valvetrain more to gain the RPM versus going with different cams? ive heard for every gram of valvetrain weight you decrease you can rev another 25rpm higher. how about adjusting the cams you have to get a bit different power band?
im not sure of the ecotec valvetrain options but if things really are like i hear they are and the ecotec aftermarket is amazing then you should have zero trouble finding things you can lighten stuff up with.
as for ur cams questions, etc. im glad your looking into the honda world for comparison and examples but thats really where the professionals play.
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Judging by the specs, I would say that you will probably have kinda crappy drivability below 2000-2500 RPM'S or so. Of course you will need a hell of a tune too, but I think you've got that covered.
And if you're concerned about coil bind (it will be kinda tight at those heights), you could always have the head machined down a bit where the spring seats are at to free up some space.
Currently #4 in Ecotec Forced Induction horsepower ratings. 505.8 WHP 414WTQ!!!
Currently 3rd quickest Ecotec on the .org - 10.949 @ 131.50 MPH!!!
Brad - Nothing really left to lighten up. The Supertech dual valve spring kit comes with Titanium retainers, other than that I'm not buying the Bates billet rocker arms, as they are like $40 bucks each! Also already have stainless valves.Cams will be billet steel tho, so that should help out. The Ecotec valvetrain is super simple, not alot of weight up there to begin with. I'm much more concerned with the bottom end holding up to the revs than the top end.
Roofy - As long as it can be driven, I'm not so concerned about how well it drives....lol I still gotta drive this thing like 5 hours on the highway to go racing, each way. So some streetability is key.
That is a good call on machining the seats down, I guess the only issue there is that will reduce my seat pressure, but if is definitely something I'll consider.
My head has the spring seats bored out for Roush mustang valve spring set. They are the PSI1530 ML Springs. Coil bind will never be a problem with mine. They have been taking to 8000 rpm many a times with zero issues. I have to replace my head, and am going to be using the same setup as before.
Anyone have any insight into the cam portion of my OP?
The only thing I can say is that I would contact them with every measurement you have going from throttle body to IM to head to header (i.e. where your header is stepped) because all of that will effect how a specific cam will mesh with the rest of your motor. Also I would invest in a set of adjustable cam gears, at this point i'm sure degreeing them would also yield the ability to fine tune your set up and you may be able to make more power with less timing doing so.
All of this is inexperienced advice gained from nothing but reading lately on H-T
Figured I'd give Desktop Dyno a go just to compare the power bands.
Here is what I got, keep in mind the RPM is off about 1200rpm, and the projected HP is also off......LMAO
However, it does show the relationship between my current stage 2, the stage 3, and the new cams as mentioned above.
Seems to make gains in exactly where I wanted it 5200-7800rpm (or on the graph 6400-9000rpm)
hey man if you think about it, the desktop dyno is probably setup for engine dyno characteristcs. lol obviously its still off though cuz no way ur losing 80 some hp through the drivetrain. but if you take in account desktop dyno variances as well as ur wheel dyno variances i bet its pretty close.
Come join us over on the Olds Quad 4 and Twin Cam Facebook group!
Ya the HP differance I don't mind so much, the power band differance is what concerns me..haha
But at the very least it SHOULD acurately show the power band differances between the two cams, so far I like what I see..
On your original topic of the cams, one way to double check would be to contact another manufacturer / shop / tuner that has experience building eco's and see if what they recommend is similar.
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You did give them the flow bench chart of your head right?
And are those going to be hollow billet cams? Those are cool.
I think these cams might also put you in the realm where the stock computer is going to start making it impossible to get the car to run right.
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Regarding that graph, if it's off by 1200rpm @ 6400rpm, then it should be off by more at a higher RPM. The error scales with RPM. I would still say you're correct on your power band though, because you don't want to be shifting at peak power. That's a waste of area under the curve. The desktop dyno suggest you should be shifting around 9600rpm ( which is 7800rpm like you want).
I used to like to play around with desktop dyno, but I always found it hard to use without complete customization of the manifolds. The choices they give you are way too generic. Maybe there's a feature to make your own, but I never found it
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Love threads like these, unfortunately I can't contribute too much other than to say, please be sure to have piston to valve clearance professionally evaluated if you play with that kind of lift on the hybrid set up. I recently had a miserable failure with a comp stage 3 L61/LE5 hybrid. I blame a bad block (damaged or cracked) based on the damage, but others i talked to think a valve kissed a piston. Being you're using the LSJ head, IDK how that changes things. Best of luck, you have the most successful hybrid by far to this point!
Leafy - yes they will be steel billet, they are cool to you get the bill lol I'm a bit worried about the ECU as well but we will see what happens.
Whalesac - I'm glad someone else seems to agree with me. Desktop dyno is a real bitch sometimes for sure, I also wish they had something better for the intake side of things.
Ryan - the cylinder head will for sure be coming off so I can clay the clearance, I did it with my stage 2 cams and it didn't even mark the clay, and that was without a head gasket. I'd be very surprised if stage 3's had piston valve clearance problems. My head is also shaved slightly.
Dave are the guys at ZZP any help for you when i have a techy question about 3800s there good but they also have been screwing around with them longer then the ecos but they might have some insight
JBO since July 30, 2001
Me and ZZP are not on good terms...lol
We have had it out a few times on the Cobalt forum, we don't see eye to eye on alot of things.
I'm still trying to get a number for a tech line from the cam manufacture, but they are based out of Belgium and I'm dealing with their UK branch...I think something is getting lost along the way...
I know Im bringing a dead thread back to life but I just wanted to add something that might help people down the line. And Newts already given up the ghost and gone turbo. So Im probably not helping anyone. Hahaha.
Not all Honda N/A builds are VTEC builds. Quite a few people actually work with non-VTEC heads with heavy porting or a fat port from the factory (refer to B20Z head). It gives you a more steady powerband. The burst in power isnt so awesome when youre trying to hold steady coming in and out of a corner. The most similar engine you could refer to for an L61 ECO IMO would be an H23Ax. A solid non-VTEC engine that is as similar in displacement as youll get aside from the H22Ax but those are all VTEC so that doesnt help us. I know its not a perfect apple to apple comparison but it could give you a rough idea what would be streetable, idle characteristics and where it would put your powerband.
Brian Crower H23A Stage-3 Full Race Cam. The duration and lift specs are lower than what is recommended in the OP but that is gross lift at the lobe and the H's use a small rocker so its more lift at the valve IIRC. I know there's nastier cams around for an H23A but BC is usually my go to for quick reference.
Im also curious who the European supplier is because Id like to dig around a little. Im getting burnt out on the Honda world.
Back from the dead for sure...lol
The manufacture was Cat Cams...they are from Europe tho I forget exactly where, website is here (only work with firefox or IE 6/7)
http://www.catcams.com/index.htm
There is a huge range of companies in Europe that offer Cams for the 2.2 Ecotec motors...seems like there might even be a few more than the last time I looked into it.
Best way to find them is to search with the European Engine and Chassis codes, ie. Z22se
There is all sorts of crazy European stuff that can be used on the NA Ecotec cars....everyone is just too cheap to do it (myself included...lol)
Sweet. Thanks! What's that chassis code for? Some sort of Vauxhall? I'm disappointed in what's available for L61s domestically. It good to know there's a larger aftermarket out there.
Couldn't you get the specs and get them ground over here by colt or comp?
Thats definitely doable as long as the Intake and Exhaust Centerlines are in the same place as the stock cams. Youre pretty much stuck with what the cast cam comes with unless youre rocking some adjustable cam gears (still havent looked to far into this) or have the ability to degree the cam by welding the keyway shut and cutting it out a certain amount of degrees and spin balancing that bad boy. Im thinking Colt wanted $150 for a single 8v cam. $300 for a set of custom cams would be great if everything could be made identical.
Now Im wondering if anyone has tried getting Eco cam blanks.
